Pitfalls of mixed fencing: should girls and boys fence each other?

[BySword]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

we wear chest protectors. why don't you just wear a cup? it is target area, and obviously you are part of the majority of the population who have cruddy low parries. (ok, i can't do the 7 or 8 either )

and don't tell me guys don't hit each other there! i've seen it! so where's the bigger risk? someone who is a guy and hits you there, or someone who is a girl and hits you there? is there a difference?

hey, at least you can get revenge on a guy.

having "good sportmanship", we guys avoid hitting each other on sensitive area.

and yes, being hit by a girl on that area is different from being hit by a guy. because hit by a guy we can avenge; being hit by a girl only leaves us frustration. this is also why we avoid hitting each other on sensitive area. but girls dont have this worry so they dont have to hesitate to hit guys on the sensitive area.

however, accidents do happen, I am not surprised that you've seen such actions performing by guys, but I can tell you such case is sporadic.

But personally, I am not opposed to mixed events. mixed events give girls more opportunity to earn ratings and experience (in georgia game, the open women event is even one person short from being a D1 event). mixed events also inpire us male fencer because we dont want to lose to girls.

[seak]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

As far as mixed fencing? I say bring it on. But have a mixed, a men's, and a women's event instead of a mixed and a womens. Men deserve just as many chances to fence as women.

*cries at the idea of adding another event to Cherry Blossom*

Honestly we do the the mixed/women thing becuase it gives the women a chance to win an event (and fence women) but also fence in a top level event. If we had a mens event it would still be an A4 in epee but the womens epee event didn't end up being even an A1. I at least feel that due to the lower quality of the womens event (numbers, ratings) we should let the women fence in both events.

Shrug as always this is all subject to change and is only my opinion, feel free to change it

[MyrddinsPrecint]

If you're a bad fencer, you usually find something to pretend you did well. That may be "being a bad fencer"--- since most touches that result in someone getting hurt had something to do with someone being out of control.

There may--- MAY --- be some argument that boys and girls perhaps should only be fencing each other in controled circumstances--- in places where coaches/refs/etc will keep an eye out for the bizarre behavior that happens before kids have critical reasoning skills.... But there isn't in my mind the same argument for men and women fencing each other.

[dcmdale]

There are fencers/coaches (fortunately only a few) out there who take a boxing oriented approach to winning: "if you are unsure of winning on point, go for a TKO," or even, "a TKO is a better quality victory than one on points."

In our experience, when you are talking about high level fencers, men and women are just as skilled at delivering the injury without drawing the black card. The only difference we have noticed is that with men, the injury will probably be something that disables you now, but you will be back in a couple of weeks. Women seem to go for the more serious sprains.

That said, in a mixed event, an A/B level women's fencer is much more likely to be injured by a D/E/U level men's fencer than a A/B level men's fencer. I think that women considering entering mixed events have to evaluate their own skills in dealing with unskilled, but physically strong competitors. (The counter-attack might give you the single light, but the parry may save you a welt).

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


Fist of all, please capitalize. Is it really such a chore?

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

we wear chest protectors. why don't you just wear a cup? it is target area, and obviously you are part of the majority of the population who have cruddy low parries. (ok, i can't do the 7 or 8 either )

Sure, I wear a cup. Why risk a lot of pain for no gain?

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

and don't tell me guys don't hit each other there! I´ve seen it! so where's the bigger risk? someone who is a guy and hits you there, or someone who is a girl and hits you there? is there a difference?

hey, at least you can get revenge on a guy.

Sure, we hit one another there once in awhile. Thus the cup.

BTW, we can get revenge on you, should it be needed.

I did the following thing way back in 1994.

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Time for telling of sins: I have hit hard on purpose once. I once had a clubmate who literally hated me. She spat in my face repeately - with no provocation whatsoever - called me stuff that could have landed her in court had she been of legal age, etc. I did nothing against this, not being able how to figure out how to handle a situation with a female 60 pounds smaller than me in the honorable way. One time, I was fiddling with the old (50ies, French make) and iffy box. She came up to me from behind and used her epee as a sabre, and slashed me really hard across my hamstrings. Hurt like hell. A few minutes later, our trainer ordered us to bout against each other, and I put a hard lunge in her belly. I had aimed for her right ovary, and she crumpled as if I would have dinged a testicle. I will never know what caused her ire - she died in a bus crash a few weeks later.

Lesson: if you spit in PG´s face and follow up with a slash on his hamstrings, he is liable to get really vindictive.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Fencergrl]

Wow… I’m surprised how many guys are complaining about women hurting them. While I have taken a few hard hits from women, the vast majority have been from guys. Almost ALL were from beginner or someone not using a good technique (I see a lot of young teen age guys punch hitting).

I find occasionally hard hits happen between experienced fencers, but they are accidental…. yes even hits that the athletic cup protects.

Deliberate hits there or hard hits other places is just poor sportsmanship. This in not a gender issue.

I wonder if the problem the guys are having with fencing women and are due to a different fencing style rather than deliberate brutality.

Personally, I seldom fence guys when I am training for a tournament. As events are segregated by gender here, I find it messes me up to fence mainly men as training for women only events.

[T. Mock]

As a small (barely 5'4) female fencer I have come across heavy-handed fencers (mostly male, but some female as well) that like to throw their weight around and have had some minor injuries because of it (sprained wrist, etc). However, splitting genders in tournaments is only going to hurt the tourn experience that female fencers can get. When I come up against someone who is bigger and stronger than I am, I feel that it is my responsibility to know my limits. If I can't handle the physical strength being used against me I remove myself. At club as well (usually only before a tourn), I will decline to fence someone if I am worried. It is easy to make an excuse either before you start fencing or even in the middle of the bout that will not start a feud between you and the other fencer. Either they don't realize how they are hurting you and just haven't learned to have a light hand or they are doing it to intimidate you and after excusing yourself from a bout with them they will hopefully feel a bit of remorse. I go into mixed tourns knowing that I could get hurt and I have a very stiff blade esp for those big strong fencers, but ultimately itake it as my responsibility to be careful.

[fencingfrog]

Fist of all, please capitalize. Is it really such a chore?

if you spell correctly, ill capitalize and punctuate. deal?

BTW, we can get revenge on you, should it be needed. I did the following thing way back in 1994.

point taken. maybe that explains what happened to my friend...but you know what i mean.

i also find that fencing guys make me fence stronger and more aggressively. (how do you spell that?) aggression is usually not a problem for me, but sometimes i have to attack more on the strip. after fencing guys where i am forced to attack or lose the bout, it becomes a habit, and helps me when fencing girls.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by southernsword

************************************************** ****

This URL is a good read if you want to have an "informed opinion" about the risks of mixed sporting events. You've never seen a mixed NAC age Cadet and above have you? Informed people 'know better'. And it has nothing to do with equality of persons or opportunity. This is also the reason you have a minimum age limit for Open Events. People shouldn't profit from their weakness by expecting others to hold back on them while they let loose with foolish disregard for safety of themselves or others. The issue here is about the differences in sex and whether a male should be expected to show good sportsmanship and hold back while a female disregards safety and enjoys taking advantage of sportsmanship to fence with undue force for the purpose of getting revenge. Maybe this is ungovernable and thus the sexes should not be allowed to fence together for the health of both. It would be good if coaches and parents were part of educating young fencers about knowing their limits and not taunting men.

http://www.caringmedical.com/sports_...d_hormones.asp

Are you real?????

Women and men are different, physically and socially. Yes. Sure. .... Why does that matter???

Mixed events are usually to create a stronger tournament than would otherwise exist (for both the men and the women, in many cases, but often mostly the women benefit). At national tournaments, the event is usually a pretty high caliber--- that's because it's a national event.

National events (to some extent) exist to train people for international events, which are run as separate. So that's one reason that has nothing to do with "ow, I got hurt!!"

People being stupid and hurting each other is bad, regardless of the sex of the people involved. And it happens in separate events all the time.

What's your master plan to stop that??

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by southernsword

I've seen fencers come to fist blows after bouts but still in the venue and no one stopped it, no one was carded, and it still is a vivid memory I can't seem to lose. As a person who has professional experience restraining out of control people, I am of the informed opinion that an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure.

Where on earth do you fence??? If any fencer was to act in such a way, they would be black carded, immediately, by more than one ref. If they refused to leave.... the authorities would be called.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by southernsword

************************************************** ****

This URL is a good read if you want to have an "informed opinion" about the risks of mixed sporting events. You've never seen a mixed NAC age Cadet and above have you? Informed people 'know better'. And it has nothing to do with equality of persons or opportunity. This is also the reason you have a minimum age limit for Open Events. People shouldn't profit from their weakness by expecting others to hold back on them while they let loose with foolish disregard for safety of themselves or others. The issue here is about the differences in sex and whether a male should be expected to show good sportsmanship and hold back while a female disregards safety and enjoys taking advantage of sportsmanship to fence with undue force for the purpose of getting revenge. Maybe this is ungovernable and thus the sexes should not be allowed to fence together for the health of both. It would be good if coaches and parents were part of educating young fencers about knowing their limits and not taunting men.

http://www.caringmedical.com/sports_...d_hormones.asp

Man, what the hell is wrong with you?

Why does a man have to hold back while he's fencing a woman? Because the 8 Newtons of force he touches her with might injure her due to her increased Q-angle? His point might punch through her skin due to a 12% body fat difference? He might fence too quickly for her and force her to lunge so fast she rips her estrodial-weakened ACL?

If women are so weak, why do we allow them to walk on the sidewalks with men? They should have their own slower moving and heavily padded testosterone-inhibited sidewalks. We shouldn't let them drive our manly cars either. We need special pedals for their delicate persuasions that require less force. Child birth?! No ****ing way! That is far too intense to be handled by females. We need to figure how to rest that activity from their grasp as well.

You're talking crazy and the article you linked to is nothing but interesting garbage.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by southernsword

Question to male fencers ages 12 to 55? Have you ever felt confused about hitting a female fencer, especially when you first started fencing girls or realizing that the chest really is a legitimate target? Have you ever fenced more forcefully against a man than you would against a particular women, girl or child? Why?

It takes 750 grams of pressure to get a point in epee. If you are "fencing forcefully" with anyone you need to discuss improving your technique with your coach.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by southernsword

So Jeff, Seeing that you have some experience directing in tournaments that are mixed, etc. To what do you attribute the demeanor of the events such that you have no reason to separate the sexes? Were the boys and girls of equal physical capacity and age? (pre-puberty) Was there a spirit of respect of the stronger males for the females and an appreciation for safety and skill evident by all? In your words, what specificially is it that makes these events work and what kind of behavior would be evidence that they should be discontinued or some fencers excluded?

What if the adults in the room were acting in ways that were escalating this behavior and the rivalry that leads to it? Perhaps the coaches and parents should be held accountable for this fencer's actions. What should a fencing community or authority do to work against this kind of behavior in the fencing venue. I've seen fencers come to fist blows after bouts but still in the venue and no one stopped it, no one was carded, and it still is a vivid memory I can't seem to lose. As a person who has professional experience restraining out of control people, I am of the informed opinion that an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure.

All your points are nonsensical what-ifs. What if the adults proceeded to rape the all children in the room? ****, we'd better not allow adults in the room while children fence at USFA sanctioned events!

Regardless of whether a black card was given, the fight still happened, so awarding a black card is superfluous. The police should have been called. Next time I'm at an open tournament I'll leave a special low pressure cell phone with my girlfriend so she doesn't break her womanly fingers while dialing 911 while I'm busy beating/brutalizing/killing the females I fence because that's just my nature, being a man and all.

[RITFencing]

I for one don't think I ever felt odd about fencing girls; but the first time I ever drilled or bouted with a woman was a long time ago. I'm all about equal opportunity; I fence to win regardless of race, gender, religion, orientation, what have you.

[fencerchica]

Of course the chest is a legit target, and I would never dream to think ill of a male fencer who landed a hard hit there as long as it was a legal fencing action!

As a female fencer, I take it as my responsibility to wear a rigid chest protector to avoid the possibility of receiving injuries which would be in no way the fault of my opponent (who could be male or female). I believe male fencers bear the same responsibility with regards to wearing a cup.

I've encountered hard hitting fencers both male and female, and jerks certainly come in both genders as well. I don't see any need for a male fencer to hold back in fencing me.

But one who can be objectively determined to be behaving vindictively/illegally is just as, although not more so, subject to the rules as a female fencer would be.

Originally Posted by southernsword

Question to male fencers ages 12 to 55? Have you ever felt confused about hitting a female fencer, especially when you first started fencing girls or realizing that the chest really is a legitimate target? Have you ever fenced more forcefully against a man than you would against a particular women, girl or child? Why?

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by southernsword

Question to male fencers ages 12 to 55? Have you ever felt confused about hitting a female fencer, especially when you first started fencing girls or realizing that the chest really is a legitimate target? Have you ever fenced more forcefully against a man than you would against a particular women, girl or child? Why?

No and never

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

All your points are nonsensical what-ifs..... then continued to push his point to far

Originally Posted by southernsword

sounding like he needs to think through his arguments a little more clearly as he's stopped making any sense many posts ago.

Okay…. This has deteriorated to the place where I am now starting to take bets now as to how soon this nonsense will be put to rest with Craig or Gav closing this thread….