New Timings, after two years

[mrbiggs]

We've had two years to adapt to the new timings. How do you feel about them now?



FOIL, by the way.

[keropie]

Less violently opposed as I did at first, but still violently opposed. While we've been able to adapt, I still think the old system was better, and more in character with RoW (particularly the lock out timings, not the tip timing).

Edit: (that'll teach me to post before the poll is up. . .) I'm honestly between they work ok, and they should go back. I voted go back, because while I can fence with them as they are, I do think they should go back to what they were.

[OROD]

I voted that an intermediate step is preferable. I like the fact that some of the marching + flick attacks are gone, which balances things out more between offense and defense. However, the increase in ducking/squatting + remises/counter-attacks is no fun at all. Plus there's still the ever present hits that dont go off and oh-so-much-fun chest protectors... arghh!

An in-between step that allows more direct attacks to land (say... oh, I dont know, like, all of them!) and enough flicks to be able to flick the backs of all the squat+counter'ers would be a welcome change.

.

[keropie]

I wonder how many of the seven people who voted 'I don't care' are not foil fencers? It seems like this is a hard one to not care on. . . but that's likely because I'm fairly partisan

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by keropie

I wonder how many of the seven people who voted 'I don't care' are not foil fencers? It seems like this is a hard one to not care on. . . but that's likely because I'm fairly partisan

Yeah, that poll option was really for foil fencers who don't really notice the changes too much, and I don't see why sabereurs and epeeists even have to vote, but I guess that's f.net for you.

[eac]

Originally Posted by keropie

I wonder how many of the seven people who voted 'I don't care' are not foil fencers? It seems like this is a hard one to not care on. . . but that's likely because I'm fairly partisan

I voted for the middle ground, but I was torn between that and not caring. Honestly, it's a fun tactical game no matter how you mess with it. Roche and his ilk are (ostensibly) motivated by an obsession with a dead form of fencing, while the anti-new-timings folk are (again ostensibly) motivated by a (in some cases temporary) inability to adapt. I don't really have either, so I'm close to not caring. However, it does sometimes take away from the tactical element to have mindless jabbing infighting, or unstoppable flick-tipped marching attacks, so a middle ground might be nice. I'm doubtful, however, that there will be any timing without some form of annoying cheap trick.

[erooMynohtnA]

I do better with the new foil timings, but I enjoy fencing less with them.

I liked to flick, so I don't like the new tip timing, but I like the lockout. I think OROD summed up the pros/cons of the new timings pretty well.

I voted for a middle ground.

[Redblade]

As an epeeist playing with foil every so often, I think they're great.

[dramamine]

Originally Posted by eac

I voted for the middle ground, but I was torn between that and not caring. Honestly, it's a fun tactical game no matter how you mess with it. Roche and his ilk are (ostensibly) motivated by an obsession with a dead form of fencing, while the anti-new-timings folk are (again ostensibly) motivated by a (in some cases temporary) inability to adapt. I don't really have either, so I'm close to not caring. However, it does sometimes take away from the tactical element to have mindless jabbing infighting, or unstoppable flick-tipped marching attacks, so a middle ground might be nice. I'm doubtful, however, that there will be any timing without some form of annoying cheap trick.

I like the new timings. I can still easily do an indirect riposte and not get locked out and I am only 5'9. I also agree with what you said about there being a new trick for any timing. I just really want to do well next season and I don't want to have to worry about another timing to figure out, I think I finally get this one.

[u r the spoon]

while i am unable to do the "fly fishing" flick (not my term, for those of you not familiar with the article) that i was once able to execute, it really hasn't stopped me from landing flicks fairly consistently. strangely enough, to make flicks go off, I just make them smaller and lighter. i was opposed to the timing change because i do like to flick, but i was fine with trying to adjust my game to do without the flick. what ticked me off was that i had to adjust my game to avoid direct hits to the chest because of the chest protectors.

the result 2 years ago--at least in women's foil--was that a lot of counter attackers and remisers were getting cheap touches and higher results than they wouldn't have gotten had the timing not been changed. (don't get me wrong, i counter attack and remise for cheap shots with the best of them. but, it isn't my _only_ game.) i don't see that as much of a factor these days because most of the top fencers, nationally and internationally, have adjusted. but in the beginning, i certainly felt as if i was being punished for making a strong direct attack to the chest, hearing it hit solid, knowing that it was held down for the minimum required time and still not getting a light.

as far as the lock out goes, that isn't as big of a deal to me. but perhaps that was because the other changed my fencing more.

[D'Art]

I feel that reducing the contact time to somewhere between the old and the new ones would be a good idea. As for the lock-out time I like it, in fact, I wouldn't be adverse to them being tightened up a bit more, though obviously not to the extent of epee.

[seak]

clearly you are not an approximatly 5ft tall foil fencer. The lock out time has made it easier for a fencer with long arms and good distance to stop hit a shorter fencer.

I don't like the new lock out timings

The new tip depression time has good and bad, I think a lot of the problem with the flick attack in foil could be solved by calling foil attacks more like sabre attacks, such that your arm has to have a 135 degree angle in order for it to be an attack. This stops the flick attack where your wrist is by your ear from having precedence over a straight attack

[D'Art]

True, I'm not a 5' foilist, but I don't have particularly good distance either. Good footwork, however, would almost eliminate any height/reach advantage the taller fencers have. And the point is, good fencers adapt.

[Joe biebel]

The new timing created a lot of problems. I'm interested in trying the new DOHA chip system to see if at least the dead on hits will register more often. The short lockout time is terrible. I fenced in a tournament yesterday and the number of actions that fencers closed on to make remises was awful. This changes fencing so that priority is bypassed by a number of less than ideal tactics like closing in so much the fencer parrying needs to pull thier arm back to get a hit in and when they do they are locked out.

Also, any tournament not on a grounded strip can be a real pain. I had several matches yesterday where my opponent would hit the floor on defense while seaching for the blade and "lockout" an otherwise beatiful hit. I counted 16 lost touches, by one fencer, in one match, due to this. Most frustrating.

[Feraud]

I’m a foil fencer but I almost answered in the “don’t care” category.
After 2 years of fencing with this it’s just not a big deal anymore.
Can’t flick? Who cares
A few straight hits don’t go off? Who cares.
Foil is still foil and still fun.

It seems strange to me that people are still complaining about getting locked out by a 300ms blocking time. Um… there’s no way 300ms is short enough to lock out an attack or riposte…. If the light ain’t going off the problem is somewhere else.

I wear a chest protector myself and the number of hits that bounce off it aren’t too many
But there are a few. I wouldn’t object to tweaking the chip a bit to try and get rid of this.

All things considered, it's the best thing to happen to foil fencing since masks.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by Feraud

I’m a foil fencer but I almost answered in the “don’t care” category...

...All things considered, it's the best thing to happen to foil fencing since masks.

You dont care, or it's the greatest thing ever? Which is it dude?

.

[Sabresque]

I don't like them because:

-They've made foil into epee (it used to be cool, now it's boring.)
-I'm short, and if you're a tall flailer, it's a pain in the booty to fence you and that's not because you're any better.

[Katman]

I dislike the new timings.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Sabresque

-They've made foil into epee (it used to be cool, now it's boring.)

That doesn't really mean anything. What part of foil is more like epee? More remises? Fewer attacks? Slower bouts?

And how do you feel that this is untrue to the theoretical form of foil, and true to the theoretical form of epee?

[Sabresque]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

That doesn't really mean anything. What part of foil is more like epee? More remises? Fewer attacks? Slower bouts?

And how do you feel that this is untrue to the theoretical form of foil, and true to the theoretical form of epee?

Haha sorry quick post w/o much explaining that obviously shows my bias, but this is how I see it: Before the timings changed, epee had and even more distinct style than foil. Now with the timings in foil, everything has slowed down, and there are a lot less actions that happen a lot less frequently. It just seems to have lost flair, becoming uncharacteristic, and bouts oftentimes don't even go to 15. I started fencing when the flick was involved and I found foil to be much more of a ballet then.