Sabre: Point hits

[The Fish]

This isn't really about rules but is making point hits "brutal"? Clearly if you sort of stab it into your opponent it won't bend and will be painful but if you turn the guard sideways so the cutting edge isn't facing the floor (or the ceiling for that matter), the blade bends like an épée or foil blade. My friends still complain about that though; is it just me hitting too hard or should I avoid point hits?

[Aliera]

I would think it'd still bend.

[keropie]

Well, I'd think it would at least bend, shatter, force them back, cause them to 'deform', pierce their skin, stop moving, or violate the laws of physics. . .

It should still bend (clearly sideways, not vertically, but still). There's nothing in the rules about it, it shoudn't be considered per se (not to say that you couldn't stab someone brutally with the wide axis being vertical, though), but it is generally considered to be incorrect technique. Most point thrust techniques in saber (all that I've encountered) are with the wide axis of the blade turned to the horizontal.

[peet]

I think point attacks with a saber just hurt more sometimes because the front of the foil and epee tips are flat and a saber's is not, so the saber "pokes" more.

There are things one can do to soften the blow though, such as:

Make sure to extend early in the attack, rather than late (i.e. at the beginning of the lunge, not the end), so that the extension is done before the hit. If your arm is still extending while you hit, it adds quite a bit of force to the blow.

Hold the weapon loosely, all the way through the attack, so that when it hits, the force can be partly absorbed.

In fact, relax the whole arm for the same reason: absorbing some of the force.

And I know it's a bit abstract, but maybe attack fast, not strong?

HTH,

-p

[jeff]

What the above said: a perfectly legal and ethical technique to use. Just like with cut attacks: don't hit too hard. As peet says: relax the arm. Some people stiffen up the shoulder, which is bad technique for lots of reasons, one of which being heavy hits.

Make point attacks, just make them better!

[AndrewH]

My sternum hurts just reading this thread.

[I_luv_saber]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

My sternum hurts just reading this thread.

ech... agreed. Though, as said before, most point attacks in saber are done (in my experience) improperly. Most are to stiff, and some people even pull back then thrust forward, which is painfully (literally) unneccesary. That being said, when executed properly, point attacks are both perfectly legal and no more painful than other attacks. Also, I wonder if part of the reason it hurts more is simply because saber fencers aren't used to point attacks. I've noticed foil and epee fencers fencing saber seem mostly unphased...

And yes, you are supposed to hold the saber so the flat of the blade is parallel to the floor/ceiling. I don't think this is so much a safety issue or anything like that, but simply because it's more natural and easier to move around. Saber is naturally in pronation almost always... just a thought.

[Redblade]

They only hurt because most sabreuers forget that a point attack is a legitimate part of the game.

[rcmatthews]

Originally Posted by The Fish

This isn't really about rules but is making point hits "brutal"? Clearly if you sort of stab it into your opponent it won't bend and will be painful but if you turn the guard sideways so the cutting edge isn't facing the floor (or the ceiling for that matter), the blade bends like an épée or foil blade. My friends still complain about that though; is it just me hitting too hard or should I avoid point hits?

If you make point attacks with the trenchant facing the piste, you have more problems than your blade not bending.

[slowgraffiti515]

as long as you dont impale them i dont see anything wrong with point hits...fencing just hurts sometimes...

and i dont really think hard hits are that bad...im more scared of the ones i cant feel

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by slowgraffiti515

as long as you dont impale them i dont see anything wrong with point hits...fencing just hurts sometimes...

and i dont really think hard hits are that bad...im more scared of the ones i cant feel

Nah there's nothing wrong with point actions, but there's a time and a place. How many times have I been finishing my attack in full lunge when the other guy decides to thrust his point into my chest? Wayyy too many.

[BovineMadness]

I've always been a big fan of the point thrust in sabre- at University level it can be a boutwinner. But I've also been on the receiving end of one that had the wide axis held vertical, and went under the bib of my mask. I was damn lucky the sabre broke before I did. I find the worst hits come when someone thrusts as a reaction to an attack- as Andrew says, lunging into a point can be pretty damn brutal.

It's a case of coaching and education, is all.