Bout Committee, Please

[Joe biebel]

So, let's say your refereeing a match. An action happens and you make a call, for example attack from the left, counter attack from the right. Touch for the left. The fencer on the right removes their mask and says, "may I have the bout committee please." Now I can't think of a referee that would not ask why, so the fencer then states that "It was my attack, I want a new ref."

Do you call the bout committee because they ask, even on a frivolous appeal? Do you card them for (take your pick) asking?

I know what I would do, at least before I hear your responses, but I confess that I do not know for sure what I am supposed to do.

Would the BC be angry if you called her/him over on such an appeal?

[downunder]

hmm, interesting one.

I suppose i could yellow card immediately for unjustified appeal. There is nothing in the rules stopping me from doing this, more to the point there are specific rules forbiding them appealing for this. After this they could appeal, as it would be about my interpretation, and they would be most likely told I was right, in which case i would issue a further red card for unjustified appeal.

Or i could just call over the bout committee... My guess is that it depends on the level of competition.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by downunder

hmm, interesting one.

I suppose i could yellow card immediately for unjustified appeal. There is nothing in the rules stopping me from doing this, more to the point there are specific rules forbiding them appealing for this. After this they could appeal, as it would be about my interpretation, and they would be most likely told I was right, in which case i would issue a further red card for unjustified appeal.

Or i could just call over the bout committee... My guess is that it depends on the level of competition.

All appeals of my calls so far have been made while I've been working in Louisiana. (It's a curosity, that.) Anyway, the first one was a question of the material rules, and so an appealable call, and was upheld when I called over Dan DeChaine. The second was a sort of a statement of fact call, in that the question was whether the passing fencer received the right to an immediate riposte after the pass. I got the head referee for that, as his desk was at the end of my strip. The third was whether you receive 2 chances to pass shim test. Again, a question of rules, so the bout committee/head referee was again called, and the call upheld.

I am not particularly worried about being overturned, but I am concerned about delaying competitions, so in this case I'd go ahead and give the card and continue the bout, unless they appealed that as well. If a bout committee member is close at hand, it doesn't delay things to bring them over, however.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

The second was a sort of a statement of fact call, in that the question was whether the passing fencer received the right to an immediate riposte after the pass.

Whether or not the riposte was immediate or whether or not it was after the pass are both statements of fact. Whether or not one is entitled to the riposte is a rule-interpretation question.

-B

[OROD]

As far as I know it's the bout committee that decides whether the appeal is justified or not. Not the director. Right?

.

[keropie]

In general, maybe... however, no appeal may be made concerning matter of fact decisions made by the referee, so appealing the awarding of ROW (no, it's not his attack, you're an idiot) is unjustified. There's no real leeway or interpretation to be made there, so I could see awarding the yellow immediately, and then if they persist, going to the BC and then giving them the red.

[prototoast]

Since you can't challenge that, you can card him for unjustified appeal. If he doesn't like that, you can have the bc come over and rule on whether or not you were right to card him, and then you can nab him on that being an unjustified appeal. Voila, you've just upped it to a red card.

[TrainingDummy]

Originally Posted by prototoast

Since you can't challenge that, you can card him for unjustified appeal. If he doesn't like that, you can have the bc come over and rule on whether or not you were right to card him, and then you can nab him on that being an unjustified appeal. Voila, you've just upped it to a red card.

The goal is not to "nab" anyone or to get someone a stiffer penalty. The goal is to handle the appeal professionally and get on with the fencing.

[Dev]

I don't think the question here is whether or not "he called that attack wrong" is a valid appeal--I'm betting that Joe knows that perfectly well, given his fencing experience. The question at hand is, is the referee required to go to the bout committee simply because one of the fencers demanded it (even if it's to have the referee him/her-self removed or replaced).

I'd also like to know the answer.

[KD5MDK]

If an appeal is made over a question of fact, is isn't a valid appeal, and so I don't see any reason to call the bout committee over it, just as a fencer saying they deserve a touch awarded (not a card) when they haven't turned a light on isn't a valid request under any circumstances. Now, once you give the card for unjusified appeal, they can appeal that, and it is a question of application of rules, and should have the bout committee come over. For that matter, if you were carded for fencing left handed, a power-mad referee might (wrongly) card you for unjustified appeal, but your appeal of that card could probably get both overturned.

The fencer can always request that a referee be observed, which is a valid request. So the question is whether they are requesting an observer, or appealing your call.

[peet]

(Anyone who ref'ed in Albuquerque will remember... )

I feel particularly experienced in how to handle it.

Wait: Actually, let me first state that even among the FOC's present at that tournament, there was not complete consensus as to whether the ref should allow a fencer to (attempt to) appeal a matter of fact. However, the best course (IMHO) for the ref to follow is still fairly clear:

When the fencer appeals to the BC regarding a matter fo fact (a clearly unjustified appeal), calmly explain to them:

"Ok, we can do that if you like. Before we do though, let me make sure you understand something. There is no way to appeal a matter of fact. Only rule interpretations may be appealed, such as whether a fencer may score after passing. When the BC finds that you are trying to appeal a matter of fact, they will not hear your appeal and you will be awarded a group 1 penalty. You may, however, request that I be observed by the BC. However, they will not overrule any of my calls on matters of fact. Also, we are not allowed to stop fencing to wait for the observer to arrive, nor may you leave the strip to make that request. A friend, coach or the like will have to do it for you."

Yes, it takes some time to say all that calmly, and that's the idea. During that time, the fencer gets a chance to calm down, re-evaluate their position, and will almost always give it up and get back to fencing.

But if they do insist on the BC, go ahead and send for the BC. Send a random spectator. Do not leave the strip. The BC will be annoyed, but mostly with the fencer, not you, especially when you tell them that you explained all about unjustified appeals, and the fencer insisted.

Most importantly, you avoid a big confrontation with the fencer that will waste almost as much time as the (non)appeal!

It will at least be a very short appeal, and any possible conflict, grief, etc. will be directed at the BC, not you. And when the BC dismisses their appeal out of hand, it will hopefully be the last moaning you get from that fencer.

-p

[disclaimer]
Oh, one more thing: I am (certainly!) not an FOC, so if you want a truly authoritative answer to this question, it'd be best to ask one of them. Better yet, ask all of them, because the answer may (*ahem*) differ slightly from one FOC to another, and that way you can do what the FOC in charge on any given day will want.
[/disclaimer]

[Inquartata]

From my reading of the last passage of t.122, I'd say that the Ref must call the BC.

"If the Referee maintains his opinion, the Directoire Technique has authority to settle an appeal on the question".

But the wording of the section is pretty darned ambiguous.

[u r the spoon]

peet's statments on the matter are correct,the fencer may only appeal rules. if the fencer disagrees with the call, he must ask for an observer. the whole statement pretty much covers it, though it isn't a requirement for the director to say it. basically, the fencer must fence. if he wants an observer, he sends someone to request one. if he refuses to fence after the request is made, then it is a yellow card for delay of bout.

that is how i would handle it and how it has been handled in a bout i was competing--at a NAC.

[Inquartata]

Mmm. t.122 says an appeal must be made by the fencer, to the Referee. Doesn't say he must send someone to the BC.

Is there another rule concerning requesting an observer?

[noodle]

its as peet said.

you can ask for permission to ask the BC if the referee is misapplying the rules (like not allowing you to switch weapons when yours is brkoen in half, or some other clearly black/white issue). you can NOT ask permission to talk to the BC if you disagree with the ref's ROW calls or the ref didn't quite see something happen. and even if you do get the BC on the ref, they'll never remove him from that bout. that bout will be finished up with him reffing.

[Inquartata]

t.122 doesn't say you ask the ref for permission to ask the BC. It just says the fencer must make the request to the ref.

[Frank Pratt]

Actually, t.122 begins by saying:

Originally Posted by t.122

If a fencer infringes this principle, casting doubt on the decision of the Referee on a point of fact during the bout, he will be penalized according to the rules (cf. t.114. t.116, t.120). But if the Referee is ignorant of or misunderstands a definite rule, or applies it in a manner contrary to the Rules, an appeal on this matter may be entertained.

The second half of this paragraph implies to me that the "matter may be entertained" ONLY of the protest is valid, and that the referee has to decide whether or not a protest is valid before calling for a BC meeting. Like Inq said, the fencer can only request that the referee call the BC. t.122 pretty clearly states that the Ref has to decide whether or not the rules mandate BC involovement (IMO, at least.) Therefore, for the situation in question, I would not call the BC and would give a yellow card for an unjustified appeal. If the fencer demanded talk with the BC and refused to fence until the BC was called, you could call the BC and then give him a red card for delaying the bout after he looses the appeal. This seems to be optional, though. You could always just keep giving him subsequent Group II penalties (red cards) for delaying the bout until his opponent wins the bout. Or, if you want to be quick about it, you could determine that the fencer is distributing order on the strip, since he is disturbing "the smooth running of the competition" (see t.82.) This would be a Group III red card and a subsequent Black Card if he continues to disturb order. Once the bout is over via. the black card, he can talk to the BC as much as he likes before he goes home.

[Allen Evans]

I think the rules give the referee the right to give an immediate yellow card for the (unjustified) appeal. However, I'll defer to Peet's experiance in this matter, which is recent, and covered about every possible ins and outs of an appeal. It's also a very professional way to handle the problem.

I HAVE seen very experianced referees simply tell the fencer there is no appeal of a statement of fact, and give the yellow card for unjustified appeal, and call the fencers on guard. Depending on the reputation of the referee (and if the fencer KNOWS the reputation of the referee -- I once saw a local "C" level fencer have a huge arguement with an FIE referee, without a leg to stand on. I don't think the fencer knew who he was arguing with) that often stops things in their tracks.

On the other hand, I was observing a bout refereed by Christian Vidosa in which one of the fencers was arguing about a statement of fact and was becoming confrontational. Mr. Vidosa sent a runner to the bout committee and sat down. A few minutes later, two other high powered referees came up and both told the fencer he was wrong -- one had even seen the action, I believe -- and that shut things down very quickly, without involving Mr. Vidosa in the conflict. Nicely handled.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

just as a fencer saying they deserve a touch awarded (not a card) when they haven't turned a light on isn't a valid request under any circumstances.

"Halt!"

"Fencer X is off the end of the strip. Please advance. You have a warning about the end of the strip. On Guard."

"Sir, shouldn't I receive a touch for X being off the end of the strip?"

-B

[KD5MDK]

Exception that proves the rule.