Bout Committee, Please

[keropie]

Unlike all those other things that burn as solids or liquids. . .

(In case you (the reader) were unaware, all burning happens in gas phase)

[Peach]

And the etymology of chemistry comes from alchemy, from Arabic al-kimiya. Anybody wanna haul architecture into this, or speedboating?

[peet]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

See, the rules do not specify ANY of that. They do not say that a proxy must be sent, or that the fencer must find one to send, or that the ref can force him to continue fencing in the meantime.

In fact, I still can't find anything at all in the rules about requesting an observer. There's only the section on appeals.

Exactly. AFAIK (I haven't checked), Observers are not mentioned in the rules; they are more of an administrative procedure that the BC at big tournaments undergoes (at their discretion) from time to time.

So, in the absence of any rule about requesting observers, we enforce t.18.3:

Leaving the strip
The Referee may not allow a fencer to leave the strip, save in
exceptional circumstances. If a competitor does so without
permission he is liable to incur the penalties enumerated in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120).

"Your refereeing sucks!" is not a valid exception, IMHO, so I would not grant permission to leave the strip.

The only reason I mention observers in my little speech above to a "protesting" fencer is because some fencers don't understand the difference between the ref being observed and a call being appealed. This misunderstanding was, in fact, the at root of the fiasco I participated in in Albuquerque.

cheers!

-p

[keropie]

Originally Posted by Peach

And the etymology of chemistry comes from alchemy, from Arabic al-kimiya. Anybody wanna haul architecture into this, or speedboating?

There is a giant Peach in Atlanta. I'm sure an architect was involved in putting it up. Architects are experts in architecture, and you are Peach ^^.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by keropie

There is a giant Peach in Atlanta. I'm sure an architect was involved in putting it up. Architects are experts in architecture, and you are Peach ^^.

Woo-hoo! Rep for you!

[sanadika]

this is a slight variation to the topic. I have seen this happen several times and would like to know how it should be handled. If fencer x doesnt like the way the action was called by the director and begins to have a dialog to the effect of of continuing his position of what fencer x thought the action should be. The director being slightly intimiated by fencer x entertains this dialog by repling to the dialog. Mean while fencer a is getting annoyed at the obvious delay of the game. Does rule t.122
If a fencer infringes this principle, casting doubt on the decision of the Referee on a point of fact during the bout, he will be penalized according to the rules (cf. t.114. t.116, t.120). But if the Referee is ignorant of or misunderstands a definite rule, or applies it in a manner contrary to the Rules, an appeal on this matter may be entertained. apply here? should the director caution fencer x by saying En Guard and if fencer x doesnt he can yellow card him ? and if a yellow card is given and on another action fencer x does the same thing can the director at that point give a red card? It may be a hard line approach but ive seen fencers continue to do this with a less experienced director and delay the game throwing off the momentum of the other fencer and i think that this is wrong but id like a rule to back it up with
Margaret Brunelle
My Fencing Center
Dare Mighty Things Open Tournament
to benefit Big Brothers Big Sisters
August 19 2006
Chico Calif

[KD5MDK]

If a fencer does not obey a referee when commanded to come on guard, then they should be penalized for disobeying the referee, and given a Group 1 penalty . If they persist in that behavior, the penalty should be repeated. At some vague point, this would become a Group 3 Red Card for disturbing order on strip. If that doesn't shut them up for the rest of the bout, they should be gone.

One of a referee's paramount goals is to maintain control of the strip.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

If a fencer does not obey a referee when commanded to come on guard, then they should be penalized for disobeying the referee, and given a Group 1 penalty.

And this is one place where you find almost no variation among decent referees--when they call en garde, you'd better get your butt to the start line.

I have had it done to me, and done to the guy who did it to me in the same pool--sulking or talking to yourself for a second is ok, but when the ref calls engarde, it's time to fence--gotta obey the ref.

MR

[KD5MDK]

My calls go something like this:

"Halt. Attack is parried. Riposte is no. Remise arrives. Touch Left. On Guard."
It's become the natural end phrase of the action. Now, I'm not too strict. If someone doesn't immediately come on guard because they're fixing their bend, tying their shoe, whatever, that's fine. If they act like they didn't hear me, well, it's possible, and so I say it again. I've never had to card some for not coming right up after the second call.

[DHCJr]

Since, I am not an expert on refereeing, I avoided getting involved. The trouble is no one has mentioned T.95 & T96.

T.95.b) No decission on a question of fact can be the subject of an appeal.

T.96.b) . . . In these circumstances, and if he has judged on a matter of fact, his decisions are irrevocable.

The determination of whose attack is a point of fact.


Further

d) Every appeal must be accompanied by the deposit of a guaranty of US$80, or its equivalent in another currency; this sum may be confiscated for the benefit of the USFA if the appeal is rejected on the grounds that it is 'frivolous'; . . .

Now this part is rather vague in that it say that appeals of decisions of the referee, does not need to put up the guarantee, but whether it means decisions of point of facts is not clear.

[oiuyt]

t.95 is in the context outlined in t.94.

t.94 The order and discipline of fencing competitions is the
responsibility, in prograssive[sic] degree, of the following persons or
authorities:
— The Referee (cf. t.96)
— The Bout Committee (cf. t.97, o.56–o.62)
— The National Office of the USFA (cf. t.129, o.63)
— The Executive Committee of the USFA (cf. t.99)
— The FIE Disciplinary Commission (cf. t.100)
— The Sports Arbitration Tribunal
See also the Disciplinary Code of the FIE (Chapter VII of the FIE Statutes).

I'll also quote t.95 here for ease of reference.

t.95 (a) Whatever juridical authority has taken a decision, this decision may be subject to an appeal to a higher juridical authority, but only to one such appeal.
(b) No decision on a question of fact can be the subject of an appeal (cf. t.122).
(c) An appeal against a decision only suspends that decision when it can be judged immediately.
(d) Every appeal must be accompanied by the deposit of a guaranty of US$80, or its equivalent in another currency; this sum may be confiscated for the benefit of the USFA if the appeal is rejected on the grounds that it is ‘frivolous’; this decision will be taken by the juridical authority responsible for hearing the appeal. However, appeals against the decisions of the Referee do not require the deposit of the guarantees mentioned above (cf. t.122).

So one may appeal from one level in t.94 to the next higher level. When making an appeal against a level above the referee (say appealling a decision of the bout committee to the National Office) one must make the $80 deposit. Appeals made to the Bout Committee about referee decisions are explicitly not subject to this deposit of guarantee. The group I penalty should serve as the proper deterrent against frivolous appeals at the referee level.

-B

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by peet

AFAIK (I haven't checked), Observers are not mentioned in the rules; they are more of an administrative procedure that the BC at big tournaments undergoes (at their discretion) from time to time.

So, in the absence of any rule about requesting observers, we enforce t.18.3:



"Your refereeing sucks!" is not a valid exception, IMHO, so I would not grant permission to leave the strip.

In that case, a fencer is NOT allowed to request an observer. Yes? If there is no provision in the rules for such a procedure, no ref need permit it. In fact, since the fencer is not supposed to be talking on the strip aside from asking for the score, the remaining time or to have anaction called, he can't properly even send someone else to do it, unless he's got some hand signal worked out with his coach or a friend beforehand. Right?

For an actual appeal, OTOH, the ref must permit it and cannot continue the bout until it's concluded one way or the other?

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by keropie

There is a giant Peach in Atlanta. I'm sure an architect was involved in putting it up.

Was his name James, by any chance?

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by sanadika

If fencer x doesnt like the way the action was called by the director and begins to have a dialog to the effect of of continuing his position of what fencer x thought the action should be. The director being slightly intimiated by fencer x entertains this dialog by repling to the dialog. Mean while fencer a is getting annoyed at the obvious delay of the game. Does rule t.122
If a fencer infringes this principle, casting doubt on the decision of the Referee on a point of fact during the bout, he will be penalized according to the rules (cf. t.114. t.116, t.120). But if the Referee is ignorant of or misunderstands a definite rule, or applies it in a manner contrary to the Rules, an appeal on this matter may be entertained. apply here? should the director caution fencer x by saying En Guard and if fencer x doesnt he can yellow card him ?

And if he doesn't, and he continues to argue with fencer X, can fencer A appeal and/or request an observer on the grounds that the ref is not discharging his duty to apply the rule?

Should the ref card himself for delay of bout?

Maybe if I ever get accredited as a ref I will try this as well.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

My calls go something like this:

"Halt. Attack is parried. Riposte is no. Remise arrives. Touch Left. On Guard."

It's become the natural end phrase of the action.

What, even after the last action of a bout? That's harsh, man.

[peet]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

For an actual appeal, OTOH, the ref must permit it and cannot continue the bout until it's concluded one way or the other?

I believe it would be defensible under the rules for the ref to refuse to entertain a clearly invalid protest. However, the OP asked what a ref should do, not what the rules require him/her to do.

cheers-

-p

[u r the spoon]

yes, not in the rules. i speak from experience--what i've witnessed and what i've been told. i was in a bout with patty szelle (now something beginning with a "C" maybe connor?) directing a few years ago at a NAC. my coach wanted me to request and observer, so i did. she said fine, but that she wasnt going to get one, i could send my coach or someone else. while trying to burn time for the observer to get there, i was yellow carded for delay of bout (ie, not coming en garde when patty called it).

maybe since they were both foreign (hungarian director, egyptian coach) this is how they've seen it handled abroad. i dunno, it was a quite a few years ago. at the time, i hadn't seen anyone else requesting observers...

giant peach? by an architect? ahahahahahahahha. my guess would be no. maybe an engineer. maybe a whimsical client. certainly not an architect!

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Was his name James, by any chance?

It was James and the Giant Peach, not James, the Giant Peach.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by tbryan

It was James and the Giant Peach, not James, the Giant Peach.

Well, perhaps it was James the Giant, Peach.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

What, even after the last action of a bout? That's harsh, man. :)

Although quite in tune with the occasional guidance to call both fencers back to their respective on guard lines and have them perform their end-of-bout salutes from there.

-B