Coaching: How do you teach bouncing to epee fencers?

[RITFencing]

For those of you out there who teach epeeists to bounce (or those of you epeeists who have been taught, as opposed to those like me who have just picked it up on their own) how do you teach it?

Furthermore, how do you teach them to use it? Saying that it can be used to make fine adjustments to distance and tempo is all well and good, but unless a fencer knows how to do that with bouncing, it isn't very useful.

[seven6ty]

Aren't there like a billion other more useful things you could teach them first? I think it's much much more important to make sure that they have a very solid footwork foundation before moving onto stuff like this. Otherwise you have kids on the strip going "Am I bouncing correctly, am I bouncing enough? Maybe if I bounce more I'll win, yeah, that's the ticket!"

[keith]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Saying that it can be used to make fine adjustments to distance and tempo is all well and good, but unless a fencer knows how to do that with bouncing, it isn't very useful.

..... which I suspect answers your question; some skills are antecedent to others.

In this case; the fine control of distance.

[gtmac]

Have you tried whacking them on their calves with an epee while screaming "BOUNCE, DAMN YOU!"?

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by seven6ty

Aren't there like a billion other more useful things you could teach them first?

Yes, however I already know how to teach them those things, and therefore don't feel much of a need to ask for help with it. I am not talking about beginner fencers, I'm talking about people who already have a decently solid grasp of timing and tempo.

Kieth: I think I'm the victim of my own improper wording. A better why to say it would have been "unless a fencer knows how to use bouncing to control them, it (bouncing) is not a useful skill."

What I'm looking for here is A) how people teach the technical skill and B) how people teach the usage. Once again, I know that it is not for beginner fencers and should not be used in place of solid footwork, but it can be very helpful (or else no higher level fencers would do it.) I can already teach more basic footwork, but bouncing is something I picked up on my own, instead of having someone help me with it, so I don't know how to help my own students with it.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by gtmac

Have you tried whacking them on their calves with an epee while screaming "BOUNCE, DAMN YOU!"?

Yes, and while HIGHLY enjoyable, it did not produce the results I was looking for.

[Craig]

We had several footwork drills in college that we used that were all grouped under the heading "creep tactics". They all dealt with using either bouncing or short footwork patterns to gain the optimal distance for making the attack.

Each drill would start with Coach performing the action and explaining the use. Then we would pair up and work on the action.

To teach a similar set of actions today, I would break down some film of epee and see what footwork patterns are being used today. (You could also look at Vezzali's footwork patterns in WF - she has very fine control of the distance.)

A common thread across all of the specific drills that we did was that you're never always creeping forward or backwards, but are moving in and out in such a way that you gain a little bit of ground over time.

Example: bouncing. bounce forward once, back once, forward twice, back once, forward once, back once, forward twice, back once, etc.

If you keep the bouncing small, then the opponent won't recognice the double-forward bounces mixed in with the back and forth and assume that you are only maintaining distance instead of gaining ground.

I'll have to go back and see if I have any of these drills written down in my notebooks. They would be a good 10-15 years old, but could still apply for teaching the theory.

Craig

[RITFencing]

Thanks a lot, Craig. Just as a note, by "fine distance control" I was using the term fine as in resolution, small distance control, not just in terms of how good it was. Like fine motor control vs. gross motor control.

[keith]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

What I'm looking for here is A) how people teach the technical skill.B) how people teach the usage

... well GTMAC provided one route, but something like Craig's excercise plus some video of specific points would help and also link to A to B.

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Once again, I know that it is not for beginner fencers and should not be used in place of solid footwork, but it can be very helpful (or else no higher level fencers would do it.)

However you are starting to get into molding students in the; "I don't care how many points you have, I am the great penguin and to win an olympic gold you must BOUNCE!!!!!" vein

(should I perhaps mention that I am not overly taken with the whole bouncing thing?)

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Once again, I know that it is not for beginner fencers and should not be used in place of solid footwork, but it can be very helpful (or else no higher level fencers would do it.)

here's a bet, and it has been a long while since I actually watched a really high level epee lesson - most of those competitve bouncers won't bounce much (or at all) while taking their lessons - I am sure there are others who could correct me on this if necessary.

Originally Posted by RITFencing

I can already teach more basic footwork, but bouncing is something I picked up on my own, instead of having someone help me with it, so I don't know how to help my own students with it.

Sometimes things are so woven together (foot and hand work to manipulate distance in epee) that the only way to really learn how to integrate them is from good sparring partners who beat the buggery out of you while you try and get it right.

[Redblade]

"Teach by example" might seem an overly simplistic response, but it answers the question succinctly (and more politely than, "Monkey see, monkey do.") The human animal's brain has certain "mirror neurons" that play an invaluable role in learning -- what we see, our bodies naturally attempt to emulate. A good example of how it works can be found in watching baby's reaction when you smile; an old-enough infant, whose brain is a stimulus learning sponge, will smile back. We use the same sort of neurons as adults as well -- it's why learning new skills by focused observation, or triggering them later via visualization practices, can be so productive.

To repeat: Bounce a little yourself. Offer an explanation, but don't over-explain the practice. (You might point out that muscles in a changing state of contraction respond more quickly than a static-positioned muscle, so the practice is actually beneficial.) Offer positive reinforcement. And as I said, make sure they see you doing it, too.

[Allen Evans]

I haven’t seen many epee lessons with bouncing except as an outgrowth of a lesson given at very high speed, or when the student is responsible for controlling and making all the distance actions. Most of the epee fencers I’ve taught tend to drift from rapid footwork, to “bouncy footwork” to bouncing without it being introduced in the lesson at all. When they start to bounce on their own, I just push them harder in lessons -- distance wise.

If I wanted to teach the fencer to bounce, I would start with them making a very low bounce in place, with set piece blade actions integrated with footwork. An example would be: while bouncing in place, the student flicks to the wrist with a bounce forward, coach makes a counterattack, and the student takes the blade in opposition, with a fleche. This is pretty much as Craig suggested.

If the fencer isn't bouncing on their own already, they tend to become so absorbed in boucing they forget to integrate their hand and foot actions.

[jBirch]

There are a couple of skills that the fencer must possess before you start teaching them to "bounce".

1) They have to have the ability to seperate the hand from the feet when they move.
2) They need to have good fundamentals in terms of footwork. Bouncing is to help you do the basics better, not a totally unique skill on its own (IMHO).
3) They need to have the ability to work the distance well. They can't be the static type that "sets traps" or overly defensive. They need to defend primarily with distance.

That said, I usually start with a directive to "keep dynamic" with the feet. Fencers at this point usually start thinking about their feet a little more and we start simply encouraging "dynamic footwork". We work the distance a little more agressively and the fencer starts feeling even more accutely the points at which they are "static" or "grounded" and unable to move. We exploit these moments in individual drills.

Generally at some point, the fencer asks "how do I move better". I find it key to get the fencer to this point as bouncing is often perceived (like flicking) as a "trick" which auto-magically makes one a better epee fencer. It's simply not true.

When the fencer is ready and knows precisely what we're trying to accomplish with the technique, we start an inidivual lesson with a demonstration of how to bounce properly. Key points:

1) The knees are the things doing the bouncing. Not the toes. The purpose is, like a shortstop, to keep the legs contiually in tension and ready to move. No air yet.
2) The tip stays steady. Even though the body is bobbing about, the tip and the forearm stay in perfect en garde.

We practice this in place until the student is able to isolate and steady the tip.

After that, we start moving around without changing the width of the engarde. There is no "bigger then smaller" fencing steps here. We merely "hop about" on the piste, moving forward and backward with both feet maintaining the same seperation.

After that, we start working on footwork transitions from "bouncing steps" to "bouncing-step-lunge" and "bouncing-step-forward, bouncing step backward" and "bouncing-step-forward, flesche" and "bouncing-step-forward, ballestra-lunge".

Finally, we make the total transition and the student is not able to return to "static steps" or "baby steps". All footwork drills are performed with "bouncing steps" and the student needs to remain continually "hopping about" even when steady in relation to the other fencer.

There is a lot of nuance here though and the coach is continually refining the particulars of the student's bounce.

Hope this helps.

James.

[jBirch]

Just a note in relation to Craig's insightful comments...

When we teach bouncing we teach it AFTER we teach "sneaking in". We teach "sneaking in" as the first lesson in "variant length steps" which introduces the idea that not all steps/lunges are of equal distance and that each step serves to change both the actual distance and the perception of distance. We do this, however, with classic fencing steps.

For us, bouncing is mostly a way to keep the fencer in motion and not, necessarily, a way to sneak in.

Chicken and egg, I suppose.

Hope this helps.

James.

[RITFencing]

Thanks a lot for the replies so far. It's starting to sound like I'm not alone, and that most epee fencers aren't really taught to bounce, but sort of figure it out as they go along, if they decide to use it.

Kieth: I'm not trying to start a holy war here. What I said is that bouncing, when done well, can be very helpful in controlling the distance. I don't recall saying that it had to be done, or that I am forcing my fencers to do it on the strip, but rather I asked how to teach it, because it is something that a number of very good fencers use effectively, and even if the student decides that they don't like it and never want to use it in a bout, I think it is important to teach them how and why it works to help them deal more effectively with opponents who do use it. In general, it's a good thing to be knowledgeable of what an opponent may use, and many epeeists there are bouncy.

[qatet]

We tend to divide teaching bouncing into a couple of different parts.

1 - Why should I bounce? This is demonstrated by playing catching games (catching balls dropped by a partner standing at a close distance, or catching objects thrown from behind the catcher) from both a static en garde and a bouncing en garde. The footwork used to make the catch becomes sharper after the bounce, I believe because the muscles are loaded at the start of the movement, or perhaps because it's harder to get a fencer moving when they're standing stock still.

2 - How should I use this bounce? This is usually demonstrated by replaying all of the beginner distance games but now including bouncing and other more advanced footwork patterns and ideas. Kids get to see how the partner responds to these new bits of footwork.

3 - I don't like bouncing, do I HAVE to? For foil and epee, my coach's short answer seems to be yes, but that you don't have to use it tactically if you don't want to. Instead, use it for changes of tempo, to keep the body loose, etc. Man. I hate bouncing, but it serves to balance my more intensive (and exhausting) footwork, so I'm rather intentionally putting it into my own bouting.

We don't often use bouncing in lessons or even in most complicated drills, as the fencers are then generally in fighting distance already. Instead, we learn it through footwork sets, games, and bouting.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

I haven’t seen many epee lessons with bouncing except as an outgrowth of a lesson given at very high speed, or when the student is responsible for controlling and making all the distance actions. Most of the epee fencers I’ve taught tend to drift from rapid footwork, to “bouncy footwork” to bouncing without it being introduced in the lesson at all. When they start to bounce on their own, I just push them harder in lessons -- distance wise.

If I wanted to teach the fencer to bounce, I would start with them making a very low bounce in place, with set piece blade actions integrated with footwork. An example would be: while bouncing in place, the student flicks to the wrist with a bounce forward, coach makes a counterattack, and the student takes the blade in opposition, with a fleche. This is pretty much as Craig suggested.

If the fencer isn't bouncing on their own already, they tend to become so absorbed in boucing they forget to integrate their hand and foot actions.

Excellently done, Allen!

I would like to clarify one thing though.

There are only a handful of quality fencers that really "bounce" - Kelsey is a good example. Most others fence out of what I would call a dynamic guard position. They are constantly moving, but there is a fairly fundamental foundation at the root of things.

[keith]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Kieth: I'm not trying to start a holy war here.

well then what is the point of posting on an internet forum

Originally Posted by RITFencing

What I said is that bouncing, when done well, can be very helpful in controlling the distance. I don't recall saying that it had to be done, or that I am forcing my fencers to do it on the strip, but rather I asked how to teach it, because it is something that a number of very good fencers use effectively, and even if the student decides that they don't like it and never want to use it in a bout, I think it is important to teach them how and why it works to help them deal more effectively with opponents who do use it. In general, it's a good thing to be knowledgeable of what an opponent may use, and many epeeists there are bouncy.

.... I thought the sarcasm/joke wrappers were unnecessary. See Allen Evans post or Mr'Es for a more polite input.

The problem with teaching bouncing as a way to control distance is that, well, you end up teaching the important thing (distance) one removed from what you are imparting (the bouncing) which is inefficient - IMHO.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Excellently done, Allen!

I would like to clarify one thing though.

There are only a handful of quality fencers that really "bounce" - Kelsey is a good example. Most others fence out of what I would call a dynamic guard position. They are constantly moving, but there is a fairly fundamental foundation at the root of things.

When you say a dynamic guard position, you mean something along the lines of using a combination of bouncing and conventional footwork?