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annacattiva · 06-20-2006, 11:14 AM

Why does it bother me to have Y-10s at Nationals?

Because I HAVE watched the events, several times in fact. And yes, the kids tend to be much more chill about everything, and the parents much more outrageous.

Kids deserve to have time on a medal stand? How about Y-8? Y-6? Obviously we do draw the line somewhere. And as I said earlier, I'm not sure that kids really care (as much as their parents, for one) whether the medal stand is at their club, at the club in the next town, in the next state, or at nationals. And anyway, as Peach says, the kid who manages to win is probably going to be a bit insufferable the next year when he doesn't. Or even earlier, when he gets back to the club and gets beat by some little kid who didn't even go.

And I think that there are very few kids who are genuinely driven athletes at that age. Most, yeah, that would be fun, their friends might be going. I'm just unconvinced that the kids really care about being there.

_Are_ there any other sports (other than gymnastics which I find a little disturbing for this) where National events include 10-year olds? Track and field? Basketball? Just curious.

Anna

edited to add: It's not that I don't believe that kids can have positive experiences. Obviously, as people have already posted, some do. It's just that I'm not entirely sure that a very similar positive experience couldn't be had elsewhere.

Philistine · 06-20-2006, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annacattiva

{snip}.

_Are_ there any other sports (other than gymnastics which I find a little disturbing for this) where National events include 10-year olds? Track and field? Basketball? Just curious.

Most sports in Junior Olympics and AAU include 10-year olds, I believe. Heck, the AAU National Championship for Judo is open to children 4 and over....

--Philistine

dberke · 06-20-2006, 12:02 PM

I recall that in a prior discussion about events at Nationals, where people were arguing for the stricter qualification paths for Div II/III and a possible 80% cut after the pools in those events, one of the prime arguments being made was that Nationals was the championship event that represented the best and therefore had stricter entry requirements.

With that said (and I'm not sure if I agree with that sentiment), I find it difficult to accept that the level of Y-10 fencing meets that criteria. After all, to attend Y-10 at Nationals, all you have to do to qualify is attend an RYC over the season. There is no restriction beyond that, such as placing high in an event like a SRYC or something that demonstrates that the kids attending are the top Y-10 competitors.

As AaronK commented, I think the mission of SN needs to be decided. If it's the championship event, then there should be similar qualification rules for all events, including the youth events. If the goal is to provide fencers with an opportunity to get experience fencing new people and participating in the "huge fencing event" environment, then the qualification rules should represent that (such as returning to the "show up at the qualifier and you're qualified for Div III" rule).

Since the USFA seems to be taking the approach of trying to limit the size of events rather than just accept the huge numbers and find a way to manage them, I hope they start at least tightening the qualification rules for all the youth events. As it stands, the rules are inconsistent and favor the youth fencers. They need to be subject to the same rules that the other age groups/divisions have to play by.

Dan

Goofy · 06-20-2006, 12:07 PM

I no longer believe that the youth events (Y10, Y12) at Summer Nationals cause any real scheduling/logistical problems, but I do not believe they should be contested at the Summer National Championships because they are not 'national championship' events. The wording in the Athlete's Handbook, section 3.2.2, lists them as 'tournaments' rather than 'championships'.

To expand the national-level experience of the Y10/Y12 competitors their events should be included in another NAC; normally there is only one NAC for these age groups, and for 2005-2006 that was Sacramento.

Dev · 06-20-2006, 12:08 PM

Y-10 fencing also exists to serve as purgatory for junior referees.

Epee bouts all goin' 1-0 on time... foil bouts with two left-handed midgets basically jousting for off-targets...

*shudder*

tbryan · 06-20-2006, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dev

Epee bouts all goin' 1-0 on time...

Wait a minute! Did you just switch topics to vetran women's epee?

Capt. Slo-mo · 06-20-2006, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philistine

the AAU National Championship for Judo is open to children 4 and over....

WHAT!!!? How have we allowed this age gap to happen? Madam President, I demand a...ah...a 3-year old National Championship event in Whacky Whackers. The future of fencing depends upon it!

foildad · 06-20-2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annacattiva

Why does it bother me to have Y-10s at Nationals?

Because I HAVE watched the events, several times in fact. And yes, the kids tend to be much more chill about everything, and the parents much more outrageous.

I've seen very few inappropriate parents at SN. More common is the inappropriate coach (most often eastern European) who shows visible disgust when little Susie loses her second DE. I'd say wait until they're 11 to break their spirit.

Aside from that aspect of it, I'm all for letting the Y10s fence at SN, for many of the reasons already noted by others. I think its especially nice for the Y10 girls to have an opportunity to fence other girls their age. In many Divisions (like ours) there are basically no other girls for them to fence locally.

AaronK · 06-20-2006, 07:26 PM

Just an asside:

The AAU-Judo is not the Judo NGB. They hold their own National championships and have rules different than those of the international standard. They may have allowed a 4 year old to compete in their "national championship" but they do not hold the national championships for judo.
USA Judo (the NGB) defines their Jr. catagories (non senior, or non-adult), by age as well as weight class. The minimum age for competition is 9.

Soberin · 06-20-2006, 07:46 PM

Remember those 200 plus Y10s will increase every year. It will eventually make a significant difference in strip/ref availability for other events. It is not a "National Championship" by the rules--no qualifiers, among other things. I thought the whole point of the RYC and SYC system was to give kids higher level experience without extensive travel requirements.

KD5MDK · 06-20-2006, 08:40 PM

I do not think that the RYC/SYC program yet has a strong enough establishment or is working quite smoothly enough to allow it to replace the current national youth events.

Your Bane · 06-20-2006, 09:15 PM

Ref: 15-2, bout!

Y10A: Yesss! (fist pump)
Y10B: Mmmnnaaahh.. (tears begin)
Gramma B: Did he hurt you??
Y10B: WAHHHHHEEE!!!!!

Video replayed for B, 6 years and 2 world cups later: priceless

DJ Apostrophe · 06-20-2006, 10:51 PM

Just to nitpick...

Y-10's fence best 2 out of 3 5 touch bouts for DEs... not a 15...

but the point is the same.

-w

missfencer95 · 06-20-2006, 11:32 PM

As a parent of a young fencer, I am strongly FOR Y10 events at Summer Nationals and NACs. The competition at local events is very small and my daughter fences against the same people at her club on a weekly basis, why should she not get a chance to fence girls from all over the country once or twice a year? It is a wonderful opportunity and increases her passion for the sport she loves.

10 year olds all over the US are involved in highly competitive sports: gymnastics, soccer, little league baseball, figure skating, swimming, etc...
I applaud the USFA for recognizing these little athletes and making them a part of Summer Nationals.

AaronK · 06-21-2006, 01:53 AM

True 10 year olds are involved in other comptetitive sports...
Though not all of that involvement is considered a "national championship". Because Johnny jumped off the bridge is not a justification for you to do so.

My point being was that supporting our kids is the most important thing. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. But is supporting our kids growth and development served by having a "Y10 National Champion" at the summer national championships? Origionally these events were not considered a national championship...(I thought I remember a few years ago the USFA announcing that Y10 and Y12 events WOULD now be relabled as Y10 and Y12 national championships- someone correct me if I am wrong).
I am not against these events, I am just wary that the mission of these events may stray or evolove into something that I can't support.

[I just thought to add: when people are complaing about the lack of participation in your local region as a PRO for holding Y10 events, I agree that it is a positive. I would say that it is also a greater negative if all of us who are involved in the sport are subsituting long distance participation for grass roots development. I can't agrue about quality of local fencing, cause that's up to local coaches rather than the fencing membership in general.]

oiuyt · 06-21-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AaronK

Origionally these events were not considered a national championship...(I thought I remember a few years ago the USFA announcing that Y10 and Y12 events WOULD now be relabled as Y10 and Y12 national championships- someone correct me if I am wrong).

It was on a BoD agenda (possibly as part of a committee report?) several years ago. General (close to, if not unanimous) concensus was NOT to make them Championship events and there was a fair minority of sentiment towards removing them from Summer Nationals altogether.

Goofy is quite right that these are still distinguished by the USFA from the Championship events at Summer Nationals.

-B

AaronK · 06-22-2006, 03:39 AM

Thanks Brad.
I do remember that it was an item for consideration (allong with changing the designation of other events), though I did not remember the exact outcome.
AK

DonnaP · 06-24-2006, 05:19 PM

Clarification... While there may not be formal divisional or sectional qualifiers for the Y10's, there is a qualifying path which ensures that summer nationals is not the youth fencer's first major event. They are required to have participated in the RYC, SRYC or youth NAC. (Which gives them more required tournament experience than some Y14, Cadet, Div II or Div III fencers need to qualify - depending on the strength of the division) While many of the young fencers may be quite inexperienced, I would have to say that in the past few years the level of play at that age has dramatically improved. I am pleased that the USFA is working to improve the opportunities for the youth fencers and fully support it - for the kids who want to be there, not for the parents or coaches who are pushing their kids to be there. My son has competed twice as a Y10 and is in Y12 this year - he has made friends with other young fencers from around the country that he now looks forward to seeing, he has had alot of fun going to competitions with friends - supporting them and being supported, and has learned that you can't always win in life - all great lessons and worth every penny.

KD5MDK · 06-25-2006, 05:19 AM

I was under the impression to attend an SYC or the YNAC you had to have already attended an RYC, so everybody will have attended some RYC or another.

DonnaP · 06-25-2006, 09:42 PM

You are correct - to attend a SRYC or YNAC the fencer must have already competed in an RYC level event. However, the current USFA qualifying path for Summer Nationals is RYC, SRYC or NAC. The value of the SRYC and the NAC is to award points to the youth fencers - now that's an area I might want to see eliminated - I definitely have mixed feelings about having a national point list for Y10 or Y12 - pros and cons both ways - but I have talked with a lot of parents who love to let you know that their child is #X on the point list.