Sabre: Cheap hits?

[The Fish]

I read in some book that, at sabre, for your hit to be valid it has to be a proper hit and (quote) "not a 'lay on' of the blade". Obviously in foil and épée they have the button at the end which has to be depressed by a specific amount but at sabre, as long as you complete the circuit, the box will register it. I know it's often hard to tell the quality of, for example, a glancing hit during a retarded flourish exchange thing where you hit your opponent simply because of your own clumsiness but:

Would a "cheap" hit like the following count?

You hold out your blade and wave it in a sort of non-commital way and it sort of brushes your opponent's inside wrist and registers.

Basically; are there any criteria for a sabre hit to be valid apart from actually touching (with no minimum amount of force) on target?

[Craig]

Originally Posted by The Fish

Basically; are there any criteria for a sabre hit to be valid apart from actually touching (with no minimum amount of force) on target?

Not anymore. There was an attempt with capteurs, but we try not to speak of those days.

Craig

[KD5MDK]

The validity of a sabre hit is determined purely by whether or not a light came on (unless scored with the guard).

[RITFencing]

I thought that unless you yelled louder than your opponent, the touch was annulled?

[slowgraffiti515]

and this is why its so easy to get noobed in sabre...

[RITFencing]

Nah, sabre is the hardest weapon to overcome a skill defecit in, at least IMHP. It's because they spend years building up big powerful lungs, and are full of so much hot air that it can come out with great force.

[RITFencing]

On a more serious note, think about what you're saying. A glancing hit in a retarded flourish exchange thing. Good fencers try to minimize that anyway, and in sabre, there is right of way to protect you from such things. Secondly, if you watch higher level sabre fencers, there isn't even that much bladework, especially in the men's events.

I've heard people whine (and been guilty of it myself) about being hit because some beginner was just flailing their blade around wildly. Now, my response is generally along the lines of: "You got hit by some newbie who was just thrashing his arm about?"

Tends to quiet things down.

[ntjst4sprt]

Originally Posted by The Fish

I read in some book that, at sabre, for your hit to be valid it has to be a proper hit and (quote) "not a 'lay on' of the blade". Obviously in foil and épée they have the button at the end which has to be depressed by a specific amount but at sabre, as long as you complete the circuit, the box will register it. I know it's often hard to tell the quality of, for example, a glancing hit during a retarded flourish exchange thing where you hit your opponent simply because of your own clumsiness but:

Would a "cheap" hit like the following count?

You hold out your blade and wave it in a sort of non-commital way and it sort of brushes your opponent's inside wrist and registers.

Basically; are there any criteria for a sabre hit to be valid apart from actually touching (with no minimum amount of force) on target?

sounds like bad distance on the opponents part..

[Agamemnon]

freakin flailing remises argg

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by The Fish

I read in some book that, at sabre, for your hit to be valid it has to be a proper hit and (quote)

You're thinking of the weapon pre 1988...bacj them the rules DID state that you had tp land with the edge, the point, or the topside of the front 3rd of the blade in order for it to be valid...side hits or ones that simple slid along the target area did not count.

However, name me ANYONE on the old 4 man jury who could REALLY see if the edge hit at speed....going on the box eliminated all sorts of cheating and bad calls.

If a blade could be made afforsably with a defined edge like the old days, yet still be on the box, you could brign that rule back and have it be relevant.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

The validity of a sabre hit is determined purely by whether or not a light came on (unless scored with the guard).

The rule book still does have a caveat.

Rule T.70 still says that a point touch which slips over the valid target does not count. In fact I have seen an attack against a point in line called valid when the referee ruled that the point in line missed with the point.

It also says that cuts which merely brush the opponent's target (passe touches) do not count. Although the referee must really be sure to call it that way. Easier to see when the point in line misses.

[bunbury]

There's the problem where people come cutting for the flank with BIG XBOX HUEG attacks, simply so that when parried, the tip still has a good chance of wipping around and blocking out the reposte. 1 light ftw.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

The rule book still does have a caveat.

Rule T.70 still says that a point touch which slips over the valid target does not count. In fact I have seen an attack against a point in line called valid when the referee ruled that the point in line missed with the point.

Hm. I'm not sure that's entirely the same thing. Specifically, the action "point in line" must land with the point. If the edge lands instead, I wouldn't say the touch was non-valid (it would be allowed in a one light situation for sure) but was rather "Point-in-Line is no, remise arrives". Which means an attack into it could have priority over the remise.

It also says that cuts which merely brush the opponent's target (passe touches) do not count. Although the referee must really be sure to call it that way. Easier to see when the point in line misses.

Hmm. I'll have to look that up, but I find it hard to imagine it being enforced ever.

[Coup de Grace]

Yep. We don't get points on style or beauty of execution. Anyone in the South Texas Division that has seen me fence will testify to that.

[Phaeton]

Originally Posted by The Fish

...a retarded flourish exchange thing where you hit your opponent simply because of your own clumsiness

"Simply Because of your own Clumsiness" truthfully gives you no right to complain. Solid parries and a good enguard are very important in sabre for this reason, and if you don't have those skills you really don't have a right to complain about somone remising being lame. Learn how to riposte without having your arm get hit. There is always the possiblity of staying completley off the blade, and lo and behold there will be a lack of cheap remise points, because you're blade won't be getting you into any kind of trouble.

Originally Posted by Aggamemnon

remises argg

Remises arn't all bad anyway. I think it's perfectly reasonable and technical to false attack, and remise on a riposte, and if you can remise four times before somone lands a valid hit, and the first doesn't hit, I see no reason why it is vital to parry riposte if you know you can land a few more of them and then possibly parry riposte. Having a fast hand has never been a bad thing.

In high level fencing there are remises but not necisarily flailing, and that's due to the fact that people are intelligent enough to handle a blade being blindly put in their face.

Fencers who remise uncontrolably as with any untechnical action can only advance so far, as it can be a way to avoid developing another skill set. If you get beaten by somone who is captain remise happy or the amazing no fine motor skill, realize that you have something you need to work on, and there's no real reason to feel that it is cheap or you've been cheated. It worked, that's what mattered, you need to learn how to fix it.

[The Fish]

Hey hey, I'm not complaining, just learning.

Thanks everyone!

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Nah, sabre is the hardest weapon to overcome a skill defecit in, at least IMHP. It's because they spend years building up big powerful lungs, and are full of so much hot air that it can come out with great force.

Meh, as one who has never been a screamer I must be a truly remarkable fencer to have gotten as far as I have, then. Hurrah for me!

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

However, name me ANYONE on the old 4 man jury who could REALLY see if the edge hit at speed....

However, it was very often possible to HEAR the difference between edge and flat. To the trained ear the blade made a sharper sound on an edge cut.

[annacattiva]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

Remises arn't all bad anyway. I think it's perfectly reasonable and technical to false attack, and remise on a riposte, and if you can remise four times before somone lands a valid hit, and the first doesn't hit, I see no reason why it is vital to parry riposte if you know you can land a few more of them and then possibly parry riposte. Having a fast hand has never been a bad thing.

Yes, but Agamemnon didn't just say "remises argg", he said "freakin flailing remises argg". Yes, the remise has a place, but it's really annoying when someone gets a touch just because they're still flailing around after being parried. And don't tell me that I need to make my guard better and parry better because I know that. It's still annoying.

Anna

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Meh, as one who has never been a screamer I must be a truly remarkable fencer to have gotten as far as I have, then. Hurrah for me!

Indeed, Inq, and just think: you have so much hot air inside you tat if you started screaming you'd become the world champion.