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Old 06-19-2006, 12:42 PM   #1
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Outdoor Wireless Fencing in the Round Video

From Epee at the Cloisters, June 17th, 2006:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=g6mA14AsQ_w

It's a large file - pause and let it load first.

The low-tone signals a touch for the green fencer, mid-tone for the red fencer, and high-tone for a double touch.

The system worked very smoothly this time. Note how few interruptions there were - the only halts were for touches scored and the rare lawn touch.
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Old 06-19-2006, 01:54 PM   #2
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Looked like fun, althought I don't really care for the idea of fencing in the round -- just old fashioned I guess.

How much do the packs weigh?
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Old 06-19-2006, 01:57 PM   #3
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It was a fun, relaxed, laid back day. I'm glad I went, although I have reservations on the grass (I refuse to bounce much or do any strong lunges; I'm worried about slippage.) It was a good time, and a nice chance to have a relaxed day before epeepalooza.
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Old 06-19-2006, 02:01 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDG
Looked like fun, althought I don't really care for the idea of fencing in the round -- just old fashioned I guess.
I have to say, that sounds pretty funny to me.
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Old 06-19-2006, 02:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDG
Looked like fun, althought I don't really care for the idea of fencing in the round
You never know until you try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDG
-- just old fashioned I guess.
Not too old-fashioned. After all, people fenced in the round long before they started fencing on narrow strips. Check out this footage from 1934:

http://www.britishpathe.com/product_...ord=epee+epics

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDG
How much do the packs weigh?
The packs are light - I didn't notice them at all while fencing.
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Old 06-19-2006, 05:28 PM   #6
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how do you guys solve the problem of hitting on bell guard?
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Old 06-19-2006, 08:44 PM   #7
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Nice video, looks really fun. I'm thinking about looking at a wireless scoring machine at nationals.

The idea at the park was really good, I loved how so many people were watching that just walked by. Looks like a blast!
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Old 06-19-2006, 08:52 PM   #8
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Fencing History

Fishkillfencers,
can you give more insight into at what time what kind
of strips were used? Any links about that other than the 1934 footage?
If it was fencing in the round/square, one point more for the traditionalists
to consider before they condemn "robot fencing".

I noticed the square (this time) as opposed to the round at Statsburgh
was way small - somewhere around half a strip length.
A question to the finalist elite : What tactical and strategic changes
did that drive for you? (other than that a fleche was taking you outside the strip).

I really like that:
barely a circuit working and the experiments/rule omissions/new rule exploration stuff
starts with full force. I wonder where it will lead us when the electronics gets more stable and more common...
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Old 06-19-2006, 11:41 PM   #9
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Quote:
I really like that:
barely a circuit working and the experiments/rule omissions/new rule exploration stuff
starts with full force.
We can't help it. It's genetic, or something like that.
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Old 06-19-2006, 11:43 PM   #10
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I don't know when people started fencing on strips. The 1934 footage suggests that fencing in the round was still around in some capacity back then. I'd like to hear from a historian on the subject.

We tried a smaller area to prevent the "Dave Strategy," otherwise known as getting a one-touch lead and then running away for 9 minutes (not that Dave ever employed it, but sometimes the threat is worse than the actual carrying out). I like the smaller area. It removed the option of excessive retreating - I had to stand my ground. Also, it fits in the same space as strips - i.e., two 7 meter squares would take about as much room as two conventional strips.

As for strategy, it's too early to say. It just feels more natural. I didn't realize how much the halts for stepping off the side and passing shoulders interrupt the flow of a bout until they were removed. I also like that I could land valid touches on a fleche after passing my opponent.

I think wireless technology has the potential to bring fencing out of the club, off the strip and out into the public. I felt like escapees from the asylum.

I'm not going back. They can't make me.
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Old 06-20-2006, 09:41 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishkillfencers
I think wireless technology has the potential to bring fencing out of the club, off the strip and out into the public. I felt like escapees from the asylum.
I actually jokingly suggested fencing outdoors to some of my clubmates quite a long time ago. I am thrilled that there are actually people doing it. If you can make fencing portable and get it out of stuffy gyms, I think that presents a great opportunity for bringing it to the public and getting them excited about it.

And if you can put it on the beach, you can get bookoo advertising bucks from the beer companies

PS - I also watched the video with the glowing epees. Very cool! I want to join your club.
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Old 06-20-2006, 09:49 AM   #12
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any reason why the fencers only move in a counter-clockwise direction

It looks like they're trying to use the extra room for an advantage, and have no idea how to do so.
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Old 06-20-2006, 09:54 AM   #13
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They probably move counter clockwise because of which side their opponent's blade is on. They don't think of it as clockwise/counter clockwise, just left and right.
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:00 AM   #14
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Still wondering about how they solved the bell problem...

James.
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:26 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touchhog
Fishkillfencers,
can you give more insight into at what time what kind
of strips were used? Any links about that other than the 1934 footage?
Hi all,

To answer the question of when fencing in the round became less common, it seems to have been around WWII. A lot of older and less standard styles of fencing, which were already considered something of an oddity in the early 20th century, did not survive long after the war, as there was increased focus on competition and less on preserving the old stuff. For another example, there is a Pathe newsreel from the 20s with kids learning sword and dagger techniques.
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Old 06-20-2006, 01:00 PM   #16
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"A question to the finalist elite : What tactical and strategic changes
did that drive for you? (other than that a fleche was taking you outside the strip)."

That happened to me in the quarter finals, my opponent was standing at the edge of the square, and I fleched and he sidestepped and parried, and the result of that was I lost a point by going off the strip! I am a fan of a bigger circle/square but I agree with Sandy that if its too big people will get a 1 point lead and ropeadope the rest of the bout.

"any reason why the fencers only move in a counter-clockwise direction
It looks like they're trying to use the extra room for an advantage, and have no idea how to do so."

You make an interesting point! It seems safer to rotate in that direction but some tricks you can try is feinting to move counterclockwise - when they step back to try to stay linear to you you fleche in a clockwise movement - this can catch them with their chest perpendicular to your fleche and they are completely exposed to get hit.

Overall fencing in the round has a more , or at least a much different, strategy in my opinion to linear fencing because sidestepping becomes a huge factor in the game, and the lack of halts makes the bout much more continuous and flows much better. It is very exciting and enjoyable, I recommend people try it out.

-Dave
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Old 06-20-2006, 08:10 PM   #17
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Lots of questions about how this wireless stuff actually works.

Lets jump right in:
I'm focusing on the invalid touches here, epee only.
With wired epee systems, the two wires of fencer A's epee are at some DC
voltage. By touching the bell guard of fencer B's epee, a circuit is closed
between the scoring box (battery + and sensor) through the two wires of
fencer A, tip contact, bell guard of B, ground wire of B, back to the
score box (battery -).
The current flowing makes the sensor detect an invalid hit.

Now cut the ground wire of B and the two wires of A.
Or, all of them while you're at it. Doesn't get better anyway.

So DC doesn't work any more, how about AC? Radio frequencies (RF)
can fly through the air with the greatest of ease. For a connection
you would need a transmitter, the air and a receiver. No ground needed.
But then, regular RF in the radio frequency bands should not be used, because
of the interference with other radio services.
But how about the frequency range between DC and the lowest frequency
used for radio transmission? No complaints there.
This signal doesn't fly as easily through the air as a RF signal.
So it is not transmitted without any wire or ground. We would need
a little bit of help, maybe a wire on one side but no need for a ground return.
(I hope I don't sound too ridiculous at this point- if you are versed in radio
frequency engineering, why didn't you post yourself, huh?)
The transmitter strength and the receiver sensitivity can be adjusted
such, that only a metallic contact between them makes the sensor go
off and indicate a invalid touch. No ground return.
So the transmitter would be on the back of fencer A, the signal goes through the body cord,
the tip, the bell guard of B, the ground wire of the body cord to the receiver.

That's one principle of how to get rid of the reels and floor cords.

On top of that there is a circuit in fencer A's box that checks with a DC circuit
for the closed tip switch.
So if only the tip switch is sensed - valid touch.
Tip switch detected plus receiver on fencer B goes of - invalid touch.

The tip switch sensed on A and the invalid detection from B is transmitted
by wireless modem (real RF this time) to the base station. In order to
address the standard scoring machine, the "wire" signals are recreated
by the RF receiver with transistor switches - like a short between
the two touch wires and a contact to the ground wire of fencer B.

Everything is needed twice for symmetry and different frequencies for "invalid" detection
are used to sort out the own transmitted frequency from the own receiver frequency.

OK, I'll stop here, hope it isn't too confusing.
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Old 06-20-2006, 10:14 PM   #18
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WOW What a mouthfull R.R. you are true to form
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Old 06-21-2006, 06:31 PM   #19
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Dumb Question time....

Do hits on the packs count for the fencer as a touch?

Are the rules for turning in tact for each fencer or are those rules altered for this style of fencing?

Is testing when a fencer thinks the equipment doesn't work altered due to the wireless situation?

I am guessing that the lockout timing for double touches is the same?
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Old 06-21-2006, 06:42 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dekko
Do hits on the packs count for the fencer as a touch?

Are the rules for turning in tact for each fencer or are those rules altered for this style of fencing?

Is testing when a fencer thinks the equipment doesn't work altered due to the wireless situation?

I am guessing that the lockout timing for double touches is the same?
(Almost) serious answer time:

Hits on the packs: if nonconducting plastic box, it would be a valid touch,
if sheet metal box with connection to the bell guard it could show invalid.
That will probably add to the longevity of the packs

The testing is the same: check for valid on your foot or wherever and check for invalid on the opponents bell guard.

Lockout out time is the same; any suggestions why it should be changed???

It's not FIE sanctioned anyway, so we might completely rethink "the rules" as well...

Could you explain what "turning in tact" means, please?

Last edited by touchhog; 06-21-2006 at 06:49 PM.
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