Possible blade measurements

[erooMynohtnA]

Someone recently proposed marking the center of balance on a blade (I think in cm from the guard). That got me thinking, what are good ways of measuring the different characteristics of blades? LP rates the flexibility of their flickmaster, and they also give the weight of their saber blades, for example.

It seems like having the length, weight, balance, and flexibility of a blade would give a good indication of a blade's feel. Basically anything would be an improvement on what manufacturers give for information "the blade is great, in fact, the best blade evar!!" Are there better ways to characterize the feel of a blade?

I realize that the best option is to buy the blade in person, but I can't usually do that. Plus, I think it would be cool to categorize what you like by something concrete like a number.

[pinkandgeek]

i thought of a flexibility test: put the blade in a vice and afix a set weight to the blade and measue the distance that the blade flexes down. how does that sound, for all i know someone may already do this. i agree with the need for a standardized ranking system, as a new fencer i don't want to purchase a blade without knowledge of its characteristics, however you can't always rely on opinions. another thing i have found is that often i can find no formal review of a blade, so i would like to be able to look at the stats and decide if that is a blade i would like to purchase. along these lines, what website has the most comprehensive/accurate review of fencing gear?

[mrbiggs]

That IS the official flexibility test; check it out in the rulebook. There is a maximum and minimum flexibility to blades.

I don't think that the numbers can ever reflect the feel of a blade.

Nor can they reflect more advanced characteristics, such as where the blade bends, and whether or not it bends more after a month or two of use. I don't understand the need to know the weight of a blade, bellguard maybe.

Blades are all the same length nowadays. If a manufacturer made blades that were not the maximum length, no one would buy a blade from them again.

[keropie]

I do know of some people who fence with size "4" and "2" blades, even as senior fencers, so I wouldn't say NO one would buy them. And I think they are still required for some youth events, at least here in the USA, so there's another market. But yes, the vast majority of blades are the full length.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by keropie

I do know of some people who fence with size "4" and "2" blades, even as senior fencers, so I wouldn't say NO one would buy them. And I think they are still required for some youth events, at least here in the USA, so there's another market. But yes, the vast majority of blades are the full length.

Some people are very few spread across the country.

The practical upshot is that if a company was found to not make blades to the maximum specifications, it would probably not be profitable for the company to make blades anymore. I don't even think the people who buy 4 and 2 blades would buy them, opting instead for actual 4 and 2 blades.

[larkmaj]

I believe except for LP all blades are basically made to 5 length (full length) and then milled down to the smaller sizes from the tang end. Don't ask about the legality, it has been discussed before, it is legal.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

That IS the official flexibility test; check it out in the rulebook. There is a maximum and minimum flexibility to blades.

I don't think that the numbers can ever reflect the feel of a blade.

Nor can they reflect more advanced characteristics, such as where the blade bends, and whether or not it bends more after a month or two of use. I don't understand the need to know the weight of a blade, bellguard maybe.

Blades are all the same length nowadays. If a manufacturer made blades that were not the maximum length, no one would buy a blade from them again.

I think you could give the angle from the maximum point of deflection and where that point is from the tip to measure where and how the blade flexes. For durability, you could always use FIE tests (which I hear aren't perfect). I realize all these things raise costs, but it's just an idea.

I have had some blades that were (relatively) very light and some that were (relatively) very heavy. I like lighter blades better, so I would like to get ones that weighed less. That would be the need to know the weight.

I know most blades are #5, which is why I didn't include it as an idea, but rather as an example of a known datum.

Pinkandgeek: You can check the fencing.net equipment reviews, but that's just opinion. You can ask around, but that's just opinion. You can look at this: http://forum.va-usfa.org/forum.cgi?b...5789912;start= but that's just well informed opinion. Basically, you'll have to try before you buy if you want to know what you're getting.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

That IS the official flexibility test; check it out in the rulebook. There is a maximum and minimum flexibility to blades.

Verifying blades passed that would be nice indeed.

I don't think that the numbers can ever reflect the feel of a blade.

I don't think they can fully represent the full range of sensations you get. But for a person who has figured out what they like, it would help a lot to be able to order replacement blades with the same specifications, unless you think that would be meaningless.

Nor can they reflect more advanced characteristics, such as where the blade bends, and whether or not it bends more after a month or two of use. I don't understand the need to know the weight of a blade, bellguard maybe.

The more advanced characteristics can be defined by user reviews, I think. Assuming the tendancy is the same within a product model.
Why would knowing the weight of the blade be meaningless, compared to the bellguard? They both add to reach the total weapon weight.

Blades are all the same length nowadays. If a manufacturer made blades that were not the maximum length, no one would buy a blade from them again.

A substantial number of blades presented at World Cups are too long. With that in mind, having blades that are 1mm shorter than the limit is better than ones that are 1mm too long. Assuming I ever went to a WC.

In any event, I proposed measuring balance from the tip, for no particular reason. Whichever method adopted would have to be consistant, of course.

[DHCJr]

One problem with all the suggestions is the tip. Blade length are made for a particular tip. If you use a longer or shorter tip then what the blade was made for, your blade will be too long or too short. Balance, do they test it with a tip or without? Do they test it with a full length tang or without? Let us say you buy a blade with a French tang or even a pistol length, but it is too long for your handle? There are a lot of variables, I don't think it is possible to give all you want, except with Sabre blades and their just clubs.

[KD5MDK]

The goal is not to be delivered a blade guarenteed to be balanced at point N or whatever. The goal is to say "I broke my blade that was balanced at point N, I'd like to replace it with an identical one, how can I know what has the same distribution?" Presuming I put the same style of tips and handles on my new blade as I did my old one, if the balance number matches the balance feel should too.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

The goal is not to be delivered a blade guarenteed to be balanced at point N or whatever. The goal is to say "I broke my blade that was balanced at point N, I'd like to replace it with an identical one, how can I know what has the same distribution?" Presuming I put the same style of tips and handles on my new blade as I did my old one, if the balance number matches the balance feel should too.

Agreed, but what I am talking about is manufacturer X makes a blade 1 cm shorter than manufacturer Y because of different tips. Another manufacturer only makes tangs that are full length. Or suppose a manufacturer makes different length tangs, how do they determine where the balance point is? If you are talking getting the blade from the same manufacturer with a specific length tang, then it is possible.

With different manufacturers, it would be apples and oranges.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Agreed, but what I am talking about is manufacturer X makes a blade 1 cm shorter than manufacturer Y because of different tips. Another manufacturer only makes tangs that are full length. Or suppose a manufacturer makes different length tangs, how do they determine where the balance point is? If you are talking getting the blade from the same manufacturer with a specific length tang, then it is possible.

With different manufacturers, it would be apples and oranges.

You're right that it's essentially an impossibility to get manufacturers to measure things the same, even shoe people can't do it (which really irritates me). One way around it would be to just measure everything as if it were a french length long tang, because it can always be cut down later, or a weight could be added fairly easily to a pistol length tang.

For me the biggest problem isn't the difference among blades of different manufacturers, it's the difference among blades of the same make and manufacture. As long as they're doing it consistently, you know you'll like X and Y numbers on Z blade. Or maybe you'd like it slightly different so you want X-1 and Y+2 on a Z blade.

I still think you could get closer to getting a like blade from different manufacturers with a number system like that than just asking for a stiff blade with a high center of gravity when you call both of them.

[KD5MDK]

My idea was that it would be primarily for within manufactuers. I want an StM just like my previous StM, or a Leon Paul France just like my previous LP F. A side benefit of this is that any one of them could implement it on their own, without needing agreement from other manufacturers.