Blade Setup: Tang Bend = Lighter Feel?

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Honestly, what do you want her to do?

Already stated.

It was a double blind test with materials she was unfamiliar with.

The burden is now on you to create a more accurate experiment to refine her earlier experiment.

Already specified.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by I_luv_saber

It stands to reason that... even IF no other advantages were gained, if you are used to a certain cant, you will be more comfortable with that cant.

The flaw in this line of reasoning is that in order to be "used to it" you must first become "used to it". So unless everyone starts off with a given bend and sticks with it---which is doubtful---they in fact change from what they are "used to" to something else.

Also, if this were a constant of human nature there would never be any change. ( Once upon a time we were used to phonograph records, for instance. Then to 8-track tapes. Then to cassettes. Then to CDs. Then to Ipods. People seemed to give up the familiar for the new with astonishing rapidity, no? )

It also stands to reason that, since everyones arm is a bit different, slight cants in the blade will make it a bit more comfortable and natural feeling to each individual...

So...my left hand really ought to like a canted tang, even if my right doesn't?

Have these been scientifically proven for fencing? No. Probably never will be... and if you don't want to believe it, that's fine.

No, no---I am only too ready to believe that they haven't been proven. That's what I'm on about.

You're a fine skeptic, and I applaude you. But the weight of proof (assuming even only a few of these stories are true, which for the sake of argument needs to be conceded as this is an ONLINE forum) has shifted in favor of benefits of canted blades.

So, if a certain number of people report being abducted by aliens....

[I_luv_saber]

The flaw in this line of reasoning is that in order to be "used to it" you must first become "used to it". So unless everyone starts off with a given bend and sticks with it---which is doubtful---they in fact change from what they are "used to" to something else.

Also, if this were a constant of human nature there would never be any change. ( Once upon a time we were used to phonograph records, for instance. Then to 8-track tapes. Then to cassettes. Then to CDs. Then to Ipods. People seemed to give up the familiar for the new with astonishing rapidity, no? )

Well, sure, you CAN change, but if you are more comfortable with one way or the other, you should go with what is more comfortable to you. And those examples are no where near the same... those are advances and differences in technology. This is no difference in technology, it is simply a question as to whether or not a cant can be more comfortable or provide any benefits. Ability to, and want to change are two different things.

So...my left hand really ought to like a canted tang, even if my right doesn't?

Sure, why not?

No, no---I am only too ready to believe that they haven't been proven. That's what I'm on about.

... ...

So, if a certain number of people report being abducted by aliens....

No, no - My point is, is since this is an ONLINE forum, and unless someone takes the time to make thier merry way to you and try and prove it to you, some concessions must be made. That being said, I could say the same of your argument. If a large percentage were saying a cant has no benefit, and they gave stories, I could say the same. I'm not saying every story on here is true... but even if only a few are, and I suspect they are, then the weight of proof has shifted to you (again, in this ONLINE format). If we were all sitting around a table, it may be a bit different, but as we are all typing away at our computers, you either need to make some concessions on what CAN be proven this way, or drop the argument. Or argue forever, whatever works!

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Already stated.

It was a double blind test with materials she was unfamiliar with.



Already specified.

By "create" I meant "do."

This entire thread was interesting for the first few posts, but now we've spent 5 pages arguing about obviously wrong crap. So I guess we don't get to find out why tang bend actually does create a lighter feel because we're talking about logical fallacies and other Latin terms that don't help us solve the actual question. What a bummer.

[El Chucko]

Has anyone ever gone to the trouble of actually measuring their preferred cant angle, in degrees?

(I hope this hasn't already been posted here. I tried to read all the relevant info in the entire thread, while at the same time ignoring Inquartata's arguing-for-the-sake-of-arguing. Geez, and I thought I knew what "too much time on your hands" meant before!)

[Inquartata]

While I DO like to argue that does not preclude my belief that I am right on a given issue.

Like this one.

If you are bending your tangs, you DO know what "too much time on your hands" means. It's when you do things with no proven utility.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

While I DO like to argue that does not preclude my belief that I am right on a given issue.

Like this one.

If you are bending your tangs, you DO know what "too much time on your hands" means. It's when you do things with no proven utility.

You have proven quite clearly you have "too much time on your hands" with your arguments.

El Chucko, I'm afraid there is no preferred cant angle. When I am building a blade for a fencer, I will have them come on-guard, do a lunge and a few parries. From that I will get the cant that should be on the blade.

Try this experiment. This is assuming a Right-handed fencer. For Left-handers reverse this. Take a weapon and hold it with your thumb at 12 O'Clock and try the moves above. Now take that same weapon and hold it at 3 O'Clock and do the same thing. Also try it at the normal angle for you. You will find the weapon will feel different.

[ckovanda]

El CHucko, while I haven't actually measured my preferred cant, I did keep the remaining bottom half of my all time favorite blade. I use it as a template when I cant my new blades. It's not perfect, and the cant alone was probably not the entire reason why it was such a nice blade. but it gives me a good ballpark consistancy to work from.

[fencerbill]

I confess I have not read all the postings in this thread and apologize if I am duplicating any.

But the cant changes the horizontal angle AND vertical angle of the wrist when the fencer comes on guard and points his weapon at his opponent's nose.

The vertical angle cocks the wrist up slightly. I am able to provide more downward impulse than upward impulse. With my wrist cocked up, I can deliver more power to downward beats and parries.

The usual cant to the left (right handed) works similarly. I can give more impulse to the left (4) than to the right (6). The cant has my wrist slightly angled to my right, facilitating beats/parries to my 4 quadrant.

[veeco]

I really don't understand why this thread is like 4 pages long, when the answer to the question was given in the first page.

Inq, while you are at the library, you might want to check out a couple of high school physics books. Those might explain to you why canting the blade brings the center of gravity closer to your hand, therefore making the blade feel lighter.

It is called science, and there are smart people who have defined a whole set of laws that explain how most of our world works. Usually, it is right.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by veeco

I really don't understand why this thread is like 4 pages long, when the answer to the question was given in the first page.

Inq, while you are at the library, you might want to check out a couple of high school physics books. Those might explain to you why canting the blade brings the center of gravity closer to your hand, therefore making the blade feel lighter.

It is called science, and there are smart people who have defined a whole set of laws that explain how most of our world works. Usually, it is right.

It's actually 8 pages long, and your explanation is not anymore accurate.

I've read a few books on physics, and I can't recall the section on canting blades. Enlighten me, if you will, as to how this shifts the center of gravity toward the hand.

The beauty of science is you can't just claim you're using it and decide you're correct. It requires proof more swaying than the invocation of its name.

[Inquartata]

Gee, yeah, why didn't anyone think of that!

Hey, every object with mass exerts a gravitational pull, too---I'll get my fat uncle to stand behind my opponent's end of the strip next time I fence, thus slowing his attacks down and speeding mine up! Brilliant, huh?

A force is significant only if it is of sufficient intensity to be felt. My fat uncle's gravitational pull is far too faint to influence anything perceptibly...and so is the "lightness" imparted by bending a tang a centimeter or two out of the horizontal.

You can continue to tell yourself that it's really "science" or your intellectual superiority which has convinced you there's a benefit to tang-bending, but you're still just fooling yourself.

[erooMynohtnA]

I'm still saying it's biomechanical advantage.

[Inquartata]

Well, of COURSE you are---you're a believer.

[mrbiggs]

Just rereading the last page of this thread got me really pumped.

So I designed and carried out an experiment to test whether or not the blade is, in fact lighter.

I took two complete foils. They both had identical Vniti blades and essentially identical tape. They both had identical German barrels and points.

The grips and guards, however, were different. One had a medium insulated Blue Gauntlet visconti, coupled with one of those sweet lightweight blue gauntlet guards they don't sell anymore. That was the uncanted blade. The other had a large non insulated Absolute visconti, coupled with a lightweight absolute guard. That was the canted blade. To begin with, the grip end of the absolute blade was 311g, while the grip end of the bg blade was 288g. I taped 4 quarters along the bg grip so it was also 311g. These quarters made no noticable difference in the feel of the blade, except that the grip end was (obviously) heavier.

I then used parts already on the kitchen counter to balance the grips at the point where my second finger goes on the grip. The second finger acts as a pivot point, so this setup accurately simulated the way my hand uses the blade as a level. I marked on each blade the place where my second finger goes when I hold the grip. I was unable to measure the distance from the guard to the marked spot on the grip, but I couldn't tell any difference between them.

I put each weapon on the pivot point and put a scale under the tip. I took 4 measurements, alternating the blades. (I was worried that the pivot point would move a little.) These are the results:

uncanted..........canted
52g......................49g
52g......................41g *
50g......................49g
52g......................50g

*this one is much less because the scale turned off in between those weighings, and there was some paper on it when it turned on, changing the tare and then the measurement. I'm not counting it, I just thought I should leave it there so you would have the complete data.


As you can see, there is a small but measurable difference (About 5-6%) between a canted and uncanted blade.

I have pictures. (The one of the grip itself didn't come out too well, but it should give you an idea of the setup.)

[erooMynohtnA]

So there were just two blades? One uncanted and one canted?

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

So there were just two blades? One uncanted and one canted?

Yeah. I only own one other blade, but it had a much heaver grip and bellguard, so i thought that it would be too innacurate.

If someone wants to confirm the experiment, they're welcome to. I think that if you used sabres with identical grips, blades, and guards, it would be more accurate. I don't know why someone would have half canted and half uncanted sabres, though.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Yeah. I only own one other blade, but it had a much heaver grip and bellguard, so i thought that it would be too innacurate.

If someone wants to confirm the experiment, they're welcome to. I think that if you used sabres with identical grips, blades, and guards, it would be more accurate. I don't know why someone would have half canted and half uncanted sabres, though.

I think all that proved is that one of your blades is lighter than the other.

I really liked your setup, though. So, I got an old french grip and tried it out. It's just a BG piece of crap.

I started with no cant and canted it a little each time I weighed the tip.

No cant- 23 g
Small cant- 24 g
Medium cant- 24 g
Large cant- 24 g
Severe cant- 24 g

With the small cant, it was wavering between 24 g and 23 g, and with the severe cant, it wavered between 24 g and 25 g.

Anyone who has read my previous posts knows it doesn't surprise me that there was little change, and that the change was for the heavier.

If that's really not enough proof for someone, I have a more precise scale, and I can post pictures of my methods. I can even include sabers, too.

[El Chucko]

Mrbiggs, your experiment intrigues me. Kudos on actually trying to logically figure this out. As ParryThis would say, "one test is worth a thousand opinions." It looks like the foil is upside down, though, such that the pivot point is inverted (with the thumb-part pointing down). I think this would effect the results.