Blade Setup: Tang Bend = Lighter Feel?

[Ordway]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Well, you know several who claim the ability, and whose claims you believe. Not quite the same as formal proof that they can actually do it...

Well, I did a test last fall that convinced me that *I* can tell the difference, anyway. I got in a big shipment of gear for my college club. Some of the sabres had straight tangs; others had very slight cants. My own sabres have noticeable cants.

I got my husband to assist me in a blind test. I stood with my eyes closed, and he placed successive weapons in my hand. In about 8 out of 10 cases I was able to tell exactly which category of weapon it fell into, by the way it balanced in my hand, and I was always able to distinguish my own weapons from the other two groups. (Note: my husband was having fun making this a good test, so he even did tricky stuff like giving me the same weapon twice in a row, etc, to make it harder for me to just guess.)

So you can believe *me*, or not, but I know that I can feel a dramatic difference with canted weapons.

To say that it feels "lighter" is more arguable. I think that's a reasonable adjective to use to describe the difference in feeling, but I wouldn't get hung up on it literally. I would say that I definitely prefer the feel of a canted weapon, and I feel that it handles better, and for me "lighter" is a convenient way of describing part of that effect, but as long as you recognize that it does feel different, it's no big deal to choose a different adjective to describe that difference.

[fatfencer]

I love Ordway. There. I said it. Seems therapeutic to have said it; but I've said as much face to face.. yet I needed another dose of therapy so I'll say it again. I love Ordway :-p)


Saber babes are so cool, aren't they?

FF

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Fechter1

Canes are made for putting power/strength linearly into the cane itself (supporting a portion of the body mass), while maintaining the control needed to remain upright, and that translates directly into fencing.

Not really.

Many of us have struck a fencing posture with a cane. Have you? If you have, where did you instinctively grasp it, for the best control? I'm guessing right where I did: above the crook, not on it. That is, on the highest part of the shaft without a "cant".

It's the difference between a sewing needle and a thumbtack.

in these cases protecting the hand against hits is not a concern (i.e. hiding it behind a guard of regulated dimensions).

Well, I never! Someone finally manages to make a logically valid point! I may have to rep you.

Of course, that doesn't explain why no one uses an upward cant on their blades. Or a lateral one. Only why people might not bend tangs beyond a certain degree. Nevertheless---good thinking!

(NB It is not as much of a concern in sabre, of course. Yet sabre fencers also restrain themselves to a range of tang bends. Why? )

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Of course, that doesn't explain why no one uses an upward cant on their blades. Or a lateral one.

i use a lateral one.
and an upward cant goes against the commonly taught method of hitting, i.e. following through into an upward bend on the blade.
(p.s., catching up on the thread currently)

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Ordway

Well, I did a test last fall that convinced me that *I* can tell the difference, anyway. I got in a big shipment of gear for my college club. Some of the sabres had straight tangs; others had very slight cants. My own sabres have noticeable cants.

I got my husband to assist me in a blind test. I stood with my eyes closed, and he placed successive weapons in my hand. In about 8 out of 10 cases I was able to tell exactly which category of weapon it fell into, by the way it balanced in my hand, and I was always able to distinguish my own weapons from the other two groups.

I think in order to have any validity, you'd need to try blades with different tang cants in the same grip-guard-pommel combination. Or better still, just in the grip. This would make it impossible to distinguish cant by the varying distances from the edges of the guards to the grips, from bends in the grips, and in the case of your own weapons by the familiar feel of the grips. You'd also have to be kept from touching the blade itself...

I'd have to say your test was a beginning, but was methodologically...um...what all polls on f.net are.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I think in order to have any validity, you'd need to try blades with different tang cants in the same grip-guard-pommel combination. Or better still, just in the grip. This would make it impossible to distinguish cant by the varying distances from the edges of the guards to the grips, from bends in the grips, and in the case of your own weapons by the familiar feel of the grips. You'd also have to be kept from touching the blade itself...

I'd have to say your test was a beginning, but was methodologically...um...what all polls on f.net are.

They'd better all be the same color too. That might make a difference.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by noodle

i use a lateral one.

OK. Have you a picture, just out of curiosity?

an upward cant goes against the commonly taught method of hitting, i.e. following through into an upward bend on the blade.
(p.s., catching up on the thread currently)

I'm missing what you're saying here.

In any event, with all the idiosyncratic "feel" preferences out there, you'd think someone somewhere would have found that this sort of cant felt "better" to them. I mean, if the effect is real, rather than imagined/tradition-based/limited by peer expectations/etc.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

OK. Have you a picture, just out of curiosity?

the ones i have currently aren't very large, but i can try. i have a foil with a larger one. camera is currently MIA, however.

I'm missing what you're saying here.

In any event, with all the idiosyncratic "feel" preferences out there, you'd think someone somewhere would have found that this sort of cant felt "better" to them. I mean, if the effect is real, rather than imagined/tradition-based/limited by peer expectations/etc.

you know when you use a point weapon and you hit and the "correct" way is to folllow through a bit, lifting your hand up a bit, making the blade bend in an upward manner?

with a downward cant, this is so much harder to do. even with just a downward bend in your blade.

[Inquartata]

Why would that be?

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Why would that be?

because of the distrubition of force. you have to put more of an upward followthrough on the tip to make the blade bend up. a downward cant will make the blade want to bend down.

[Inquartata]

Most people's blades are pre-curved to obtain a consistent direction of bend. I'd think that would be all that was necessary...

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Most people's blades are pre-curved to obtain a consistent direction of bend. I'd think that would be all that was necessary...

helpful, hell yes. but just becasue there's a bend in it doesn't mean it will always bend in that way.

[seven6ty]

Wow, I exited this thread about 4 or 5 pages ago because it was painfully obvious Inquartata had no idea what he was talking about. 4 or 5 pages later it's amazing he's still going at it.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I think in order to have any validity, you'd need to try blades with different tang cants in the same grip-guard-pommel combination. Or better still, just in the grip. This would make it impossible to distinguish cant by the varying distances from the edges of the guards to the grips, from bends in the grips, and in the case of your own weapons by the familiar feel of the grips. You'd also have to be kept from touching the blade itself...

I'd have to say your test was a beginning, but was methodologically...um...what all polls on f.net are.

They were all new blades. Your hypothesis that she learned the difference between them by feel, and which ones were canted, in the few times she handled them before the test, is unlikely to say the least. Even ignoring her own blades, she pretty much disproved your hypothesis.

[Fechter1]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Not really.

Many of us have struck a fencing posture with a cane. Have you? If you have, where did you instinctively grasp it, for the best control? I'm guessing right where I did: above the crook, not on it. That is, on the highest part of the shaft without a "cant".

Good guess, but incorrect, unfortunately. While I've no doubt you grasped it above the handle, I am an epeeist, and more of the pokey-pokey variety, so I held it by the handle, for better point control.

Well, I never! Someone finally manages to make a logically valid point! I may have to rep you.

So where's me rep???

Of course, that doesn't explain why no one uses an upward cant on their blades. Or a lateral one. Only why people might not bend tangs beyond a certain degree. Nevertheless---good thinking!

Try this one next time you get to hold a pistol grip: Close your eyes, hold out your hand whichever's most comfortable to you, and have someone place a weapon in your hand. Then open your eyes and look where the tip is pointed. Then look at the tang cant again with this in mind.
Edit: I personally use both lateral (in) and vertical (down) cant on my blades.

(NB It is not as much of a concern in sabre, of course. Yet sabre fencers also restrain themselves to a range of tang bends. Why? )

Sabre's a different animal than the point-only weapons, and that might be why the opinions differ as much as they do. Unfortunately, I do not have the linguistic or argumentative skills to express the true extent of the argument, but again, as above, it's mostly what the individual fencer feels most comfortable/effective with.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by seven6ty

Wow, I exited this thread about 4 or 5 pages ago because it was painfully obvious Inquartata had no idea what he was talking about. 4 or 5 pages later it's amazing he's still going at it.

Ah, the invincible "wisdom" of twenty-somethings.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

They were all new blades.

And all blades are of course absolutely identical. Somehow I have never noticed that! Thanks for pointing it out...

Your hypothesis that she learned the difference between them by feel, and which ones were canted, in the few times she handled them before the test, is unlikely to say the least. Even ignoring her own blades, she pretty much disproved your hypothesis.

Alas, no. The methodology is still flawed, and dismissing objections as "unlikely" is no proof that it is otherwise. That too is only opinion.

Choosing to believe the outcome of a flawed test does not magically dispose of the flaws. You are eagerly buying something which comports with your own pre-existing convictions, nothing more.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

And all blades are of course absolutely identical. Somehow I have never noticed that! Thanks for pointing it out...

For the purpose of the test? Yes.

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Alas, no. The methodology is still flawed, and dismissing objections as "unlikely" is no proof that it is otherwise. That too is only opinion.

Choosing to believe the outcome of a flawed test does not magically dispose of the flaws. You are eagerly buying something which comports with your own pre-existing convictions, nothing more.

Honestly, what do you want her to do? It was a double blind test with materials she was unfamiliar with.

Also, you know logic, and you should know that it is impossible to prove a universal negative. I cannot prove that her positive results were not simply luck, no matter what I or she does. Science is not about proof, it is about creating more and more accurate experiments to learn about the world around us. Ordway created a perfectly fine experiment that turned up in favor of one hypothesis. The burden is now on you to create a more accurate experiment to refine her earlier experiment.

[I_luv_saber]

I grasp the cane between the