Coaching: Teaching the en guard position

[Mr Epee]

Assume you are working with a new student in their first lesson.

How do you coax them into a proper en guard?

Please provide the instructions in a systematic form

For Example:

1. Step1
2. Step2
3. Step3

Well you get the idea.

Why do you think this is the best method?

[keith]

Ideally if working one on one;

1. Get them to stand in some approximation of en guard.
2. Get them to straighten their arm and hit. Observe how the action of hitting is easiest from the correct en guard. Gently correct but don't get obsessive at this point.
3. Repeat with move forward backwards movements.
4. Work on the idea that the natural position (sixte/tierce) is a covered position. So develop the enguard as the 'automatic parry' be extending into it. Student hits with 'riposte'

Not terribly systematic but the idea is repetition and gradual correction rather than obsessing over getting the feet right for 20 minutes then another 20 minutes on body position then half an hour on the hand etc etc.

The rationale; the 'reason' of the en guard is that it is the most effective position for defense and attack - a concept that is easily explained and demonstrated.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

1. I get in engarde position.
2. Tell student to mimic me.
3. Correct them until its good.

When teaching the en garde this way, I prefer to teach in front of a mirror, but its not always an option. In lessons, when a student starts drifting their hand out of position as beginners have a habit of doing, a nice flick on the offending area is a good way to remind them where to keep their hand.

[Zilverzmurfen]

In lessons, when a student starts drifting their hand out of position as beginners have a habit of doing, a nice flick on the offending area is a good way to remind them where to keep their hand.

I personally wouldn't go so far as to say it's a good way, but it's a way, sure.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Hey, it tends to work really really fast.

[keropie]

I've always done the basic position -> shoulder width modified basic postion -> en guarde transition. If someone actually can't mimic basic position, they are probably not a good candidate for fencing, and certainly a candidate for lots of individual help.

Once we that approximation of on guard, then move into advancing, noticing how poor body placement in on guard makes advancing harder, stressing stability of position, etc. Add in retreat, same issues. Move to lunge, noting that this is our first movement in which we stop out of on guard (usually followed by a brief discussion of vector spaces, just so I can see little stars above their heads ^^). Then return on guard.

All of this is usually done via group lesson, by the way, and that way when (if) individual work begins, we have at least some basis for the position.

[Mr Epee]

I personally wouldn't go so far as to say it's a good way, but it's a way, sure.

Let's try to get a few more contributions in before you start judging people.

So what's your method?

[RITFencing]

What I do is:

Step 1: Stand with heels together in an L, both heels on a line on the gym floor. Shoulders at about a 45 degree angle; I prefer a more squared off en garde stance than some because it feels much more natural and easy to me.

Step 2: Step forward a little beyond shoulder width and bend knees, keeping heels in line, weight roughly even and on the balls of the feet and with good posture and the shoulders still in a 45 degreeish angle.

Step 3: Make sure the shoulders are loose. I do this by raising each arm, telling them to let it go completely limp, and dropping it. Most new fencers will keep tension in it, which prevents it from falling. This helps demonstrates how a loose shoulder should feel. I repeat this with each arm until I can pick it up and let it fall naturally, and tell them to keep that loose feeling in the shoulders.

Step 4: Raise front arm slightly. I'm having trouble putting into words the position I like to mak sure of; the forearm is parallel to the ground, the elbow is extended and bent a bit (enough to wiggle my fist between the elbow and ribcage) and I keep the elbow drawn towards the center of the body, to make sure they don't put it way out to the side, which throws off everything. I generally hold their arm in this position and tell them to use only enough tension in their arm to barely hold the arm in place. I then test that by making sure I can easily move their hand back and forth, up and down. Note that this is done with no weapon. I then lift the back hand out to the side a bit, the exact position isn't really important, and make sure there is a minimal amount of tension.

That should be about it. There's a lot of emphasis on keeping the shoulders and arms loose, because I've noticed that a lot of tension tends to reside there, and tension is one fo the big problems newbies have to overcome. I deal more with lower body tension in teaching footwork than in the en garde becuase I find it easier to notice when the legs are moving than when they're at rest.

[qatet]

1. Start with feet in symmetrical 90-degree angle (neither pointing forwards or backwards). Introduce idea of separately moving toes and heels, bending knees, keeping balance with just legs, not lurching with upper body.

2. Same work, now with front foot pointing forwards and back foot pointing sideways - "starting position." Emphasize looking forwards (at the invisible person with three feet of steel who wants to hit you!).

3. From starting position. Step forwards onto front heel. Heels up. Bend your knees. Up to and through this, hands are still on hips to encourage thinking of footwork, especially lunges, as something done with just the feet, not the upper body. As we start learning footwork, fine tuning comes in - demonstrating how hard it is to move with the feet too far apart and how hard it is to maintain balance with them too close together, how the direction in which the front toe points will influence the direction in which you will move, etc.

4. (This is the second class - first class continued with no hands, introducing advance, retreat, half-steps, lunge, recover.) Extend front hand directly in front. Imagine you are a clock, and this is 12:00. Righties: extend back hand to 8:00 (Not 6:00! Demonstrate how difficult it is to look forwards with back hand at 6:00). Lefties: extend back hand to 4:00. Drop front hand, so front arm is parallel with ground and thumb is facing up (front hand, at this point, is holding a ring or tennis ball). Furl back arm so fingers can't quite touch back shoulder and elbow is below hand.

5. Instill sequence of 1) extend front arm, 2) extend back arm, 3) recover front arm 4) recover back arm to help get the arms correctly co-ordinated with the feet during the lunge.

[qatet]

That should be about it. There's a lot of emphasis on keeping the shoulders and arms loose, because I've noticed that a lot of tension tends to reside there, and tension is one fo the big problems newbies have to overcome. I deal more with lower body tension in teaching footwork than in the en garde becuase I find it easier to notice when the legs are moving than when they're at rest.

Boy, it's an astoundingly big problem, especially if you're teaching juniors or adults. We get to work on this as early as we can, even in the very first warm-up, teaching people how to swing their arms while skipping (and demonstrating the strange jerky robot motions that they all make when you tell them to swing their arms - a little ridicule goes a long way!), or having them make large, easy circles while shuffling sideways.

[RITFencing]

Oh, I forgot to mention; when I tell them to step forward and bend their knees (step 2) I make sure the knees bend the same way the toes point.

[RITFencing]

Boy, it's an astoundingly big problem, especially if you're teaching juniors or adults. We get to work on this as early as we can, even in the very first warm-up, teaching people how to swing their arms while skipping (and demonstrating the strange jerky robot motions that they all make when you tell them to swing their arms - a little ridicule goes a long way!), or having them make large, easy circles while shuffling sideways.

Absolutely, and I find nipping it in the bud can really help beginners progress much quicker. It's faster to avoid a problem early than to correct it later, and having a solid foundation is crucial.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

While we're in a coaching thread, I feel like bringing up a topic that bugs me.

Yeah, its thread drift time.

Why is it that people assume that just because someone is older, they can automatically know more and can coach better? Even if they do not have much experience? I don't know why, but it bugs me. Alot.

[Mr Epee]

DFP... start you're own thread.

They're free.

[RebelFencer]

While we're in a coaching thread, I feel like bringing up a topic that bugs me.

Yeah, its thread drift time.

Why is it that people assume that just because someone is older, they can automatically know more and can coach better? Even if they do not have much experience? I don't know why, but it bugs me. Alot.

Especially since 16 year olds know everything!

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

DFP... start you're own thread.

They're free.

Its your, not you're.

Ok.

And rebel, we all know a certain local coach who gives lessons way too hard for his students, and does blade motions like they're harvesting wheat.

[Katman]

I won't be teaching any more, but here's what I've told students. I usually wind up teaching more than one at the same time in my university club.

Everything I say to do I also demonstrate.

.5 Today we're going to learn en guard. Everything you do in fencing stems from it, so it is important that you have a good one or you can only suffer later.

1. Stand in a line, facing me.

2. Turn and face the appropriate direction for your handeness, with your feet together. (Right-handed folks would turn to their right and left-handed folks would turn to their left).

3. look at me, but keep your feet where they are. Point your (appropriate leading foot) forward like so.

4. Take a step forward, about this far. (here, I demonstrate)

5. Bend your knees.

Usually, they're in en guard by now. We haven't given them weapons, so to approximate where their hands should be, we show them a trick Alex Beguinet from coaches college taught me at a weekend seminar.

Everything I say to do I demonstrate, of course.

1. Cup your hands at your belly, elbows out.

2. Spread your arms like so.

Most of the method described for getting their feet right was something I developed on my own but later discovered was similar to how they teach you to do it in coach's college. The reason we went this path was because our method of teaching was to explain every little detail while showing it, then expect the students to do it right away. We'd spend one entire class period straightening knees and adjusting feet.

Now, we show them a path to get to that position and explain what we think are the important parts (front knee above the ankle at ninety degrees, straight line between back feet, enguarde is for efficent movement on strip and injury prevention).

[prototoast]

1. I get in engarde position.
2. Tell student to mimic me.
3. Correct them until its good.

When teaching the en garde this way, I prefer to teach in front of a mirror, but its not always an option. In lessons, when a student starts drifting their hand out of position as beginners have a habit of doing, a nice flick on the offending area is a good way to remind them where to keep their hand.

Yeah, but the problem is that even assuming they do it perfectly, they still end up with your en garde.

[bigdawg2121]

FWIW the way Coach has us teach en guarde to new people and walk-ons etc, goes something like this:

1) Stand with feet together at 90 degree angle (sometimes called "attention")
2) Step out so that your feet are about 1 to 1.5 blocks apart (our floor has plastic tiles which for most intents and purposes approximate shoulder width)
3) Bend knees and sit into en guarde.
4) Raise weapon hand so that is about parallel to the ground and back hand to about the same height.
5) Check for "butt-itis" or inverse butt-itis (i.e. are they leaning to a side rather than centered.
6) Check en guarde by standing on tip-toes from the current position (if it's correct then you should be balanced and feel centered even when on your toes)
7) Return en guarde with the newly centered position
8) Clap without looking (if hands are in the right position relative to each other and you're not leaning then your hands should meet together almost perfectly)
9) do footwork and stop at intervals to have them rinse wash and repeat 6-9.

Doesn't actually take long at all and tends to be effective even if individual fencers will stray away from parts of it as they gain experience.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Yeah, but the problem is that even assuming they do it perfectly, they still end up with your en garde.

The difference is that I use a text book en garde when teaching. When fencing, heck no.