Why are these guys so pissed at the US?

[Stryder]

Headlines in an Iraqi newspaper read:
"US gains fruits of it's worldwide crimes"

[attila]

What did we expect from a country we have bombed the **** out of? I bet they even quote some guy saying " Yeah! This is what it feels like when somebody attacks your family and friends and kills them!" Remember Iraq did not invade the US. They just invaded one of our oil suppliers.

[lochinvar]

Ed, let's keep it in perspective.

They invaded one of our ALLIES. And threatened others.

Germany didn't invade the US, either--they invaded Poland...and then France...and then Russia...

But we still fought THEM, and I think we were right to do so.

[Sildar]

I must concur with attila. The situation is much more complex than the simplistic, "We're good, they're bad, let's get em" mentality I've been hearing so much of. Not that this act is in any way excusable; there is nothing that can be said that makes such actions okay. However, we must recognize that the cause of the problem is more complex than the 2-dimensional Hollywood-esque belief in "evil terrorists" that so many seem to have absorbed. If this event had been the direct action of one or two random nuts, then it could be dismissed as pure insanity, plain and simple. When you have a minimum of a dozen people, all willing to plan for months or years in advance, with political ties to nations which have despised the US for decades, there's got to be a little more to it.
I might suggest that, though there are many factors involved, even our allies were becoming more leery of US policy over the past year or so. When I was in Italy a couple months ago, large numbers of Europeans were appalled by the way the US has been dealing with international relations issues, primarily environmental concerns and the missile shield plan; not necessarily the defense system itself, but the fact that our government stated blatantly that we planned to continue the program despite objection from nearly ever other allied nation in clear violoation of international treaty. In hindsight, it isn't surprising that our arrogant dismissal of the concerns of other nations would have more dramatic consequences with countries and groups with previously established hatred of our country. I'm not saying that "this is THE reason," but rather that we cannot expect to ignore the concerns of other countries and not be affected by our actions.

[Moonitic]

If they don't like what our government does (man, what clueless FOOLS they are if they think WE agree half the time!), then take it out on our government. I'm tired of all sides using innocent people as their pawns. There were little kids on those planes. What the HELL did a 4 year old do to a world leader?

And yes, I do realize that our military has done the same to others' children. For that, I'm truly sorry. I'm not dancing on someone's grave over it. That's sick & wrong.

We need to round up the world leaders, lock them in a room & let THEM duke it out. I'm tired of the lumping & categorizing that all sides seem to do at any given time.

[Purple Fencer]

If I may point out that not EVERY other country hates the US. The following is from one of our allies, yes, but teh truch remains the same.

Tribute To America


The following, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
Its subject is "America: The Good Neighbor"

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian
television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant
remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out
of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to
the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.


When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries
in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were
flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman
Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any
other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly
them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?


Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American
technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not once, but several times-and
safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their
draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets,
and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting
American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad
and the New York Central went broke, nobody
loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced
to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose
at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada
is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

[attila]

Our country is being tested. We are being tested. Shall we be a country that trully belives in the rule of law, or shall we be a country that (like others) only applies those laws when convenient. Shall we, in responding to this heinous act,act like a civilized society, or shall we lower ourselves to the level of our attackers. Shall we spill the blood of innocents in our quest for retribution. Or should we be patient and deliver our collective wrath accurately and definetivly, upon those and only those, guilty of this most horrific act.

I hope and pray we act like better human beings than those who attacked us. Spilling the blood of more innocents would just create a further generation of hatred and eventually another desperate act against our country and citizens. We are better than that, I hope...

[lochinvar]

Ed, aka: Attila

Hear, hear!

[Inquartata]

I have to agree with Moon. If any of these terror groups around the world believes that doctors, lawyers, low-level businessemen, cleaning ladies, restaurant workers, pilots or flight attendants---or their spouses and children---have one iota of control over any of the US governmental / diplomatic policies or decisions they decry, then they are morons as well as monsters. Osama is on record as saying that every American should be killed. EVERY American. ( This flies directly in the face of Koranic injunctions, too, by the way. ) Not because babes in arms and farm laborers and mechanics are oppressing anyone anywhere, or acting in a high-handed fashion toward anyone else's values, but because they are Americans. That's just hate: formless, baseless, inchoate hate, which is stirred up to a white-hot pitch and aimed at a target by their political and religious leaders, who have agendas which would not change if every single American policy they decry were reversed.

But looking for rational reasons for such acts as these is pointless. Anyone who believes that saying "Mohammed was a wanker" is just cause for execution is not behaving rationally, by definition. H.L. Mencken once defined Hell as a place where the Ten Commandments had a police force behind them. And that applies just as well to these fundamentalist Muslim states and non-state groups as well...

[attila]

Inquartata

I take it you don't think much about our little voting democracy. Voting is what is supposed to influence those who DO make policy. I'm a peacenik--nobody listens to me--but I still vote. Seems to me the other alternatives to not voting can be a bit unpleaseant......

[Inquartata]

Yes, indeed, attila. But the sort of folks we've been discussing don't have any regard for the concept of democracy. Indeed, they don't even appear to understand it. I scarcely think they're blaming someone for voting for the proverbial lesser of two evils...nor would even that account for their animus against ALL Americans, most of whom don't bother to vote at all.

And ultimately, we have less power than we believe when it comes to choosing our own destinies at the ballot box, as I'm sure you have realized. Our system, better than the nearest alternative though it may be, always reminds me of the story of the man who never voted. One year his fellow citizens, exasperated, seized him and threatened his life, saying that "You MUST do as we do, and vote for the best man for the job!" "I would love to", the man replied, wringing his hands, "but---he has never run!"

[Catlady]

A little defense for Cyrano. On one hand, I can't say we deserve what happenned to us. On the other hand I think it is typical of exactly what everyone says is wrong with Americans that we aren't aware of what we may have done to make others angry. The truth is we have a tendency to meddle in the affairs of other countries, for better or worse. It's gotten us in trouble before and it looks like it's gotten us into trouble again.
We frequently see ourselves as the world's policeman, and it isn't our job. Granted, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing, as they say, and I agree that all of us must alleviate suffering when and where we can, however force is not always the answer.

In addition if you look back at history, part of the reason why the Third World is still "developing" is because the First World, basically the US and Western Europe, exploited it. In a perfect world, the sins of the fathers should perhaps not be visited upon the sons, regardless of what the bible says, but this isn't a perfect world and there is resentment about the situation. In addition, we Americans have a sort of conceit that goes beyond simple national pride, or patriotism that seems to say that we are the best at everything and we are indisputedly the greatest. Part of the reason we are so shocked at these events is because of this conceit. As far as we are concerned, this sort of thing happens to all those other countries, not the almight US. Guess what, it does. As much as we value our own freedom we will have to sacrifice part of it for our own safety and follow the lead of most European countries in having heightened security. Yes, it's terrible that this kind of thing has to happen, but welcome to the big, bad world.

Let me clarify, I am proud to be an American. It is a great country and perhaps the greatest, longest running, most sucessful experiment in government ever. However, I think we could be better and that if we don't take action and remain vigilant we may lose our place as one of the greatest countries in the world. Despite being in the same position as Attila, a peace-nik whose views are frequently ignored, and in addition as a resident of a state where a vote for any other party besides Republican is an act of futility, I make an effort to always vote, or at least to vote as long as I know enough to have an opinion about the race. I still believe that through grassroots effort we can change the country and world, but I also refuse to do the equivalent of a small child who sticks her fingers in her ears and hums to avoid hearing something unpleasant.

I know the response from some of you will be, if you dislike it so much, leave. To some extent if my family weren't here I might consider it, in addition, when I see something I don't like, I try to change it, not ignore it.

So again, I think we need to attempt to see the views of the other side. Let me emphasize, I am not trying to be an apologist for the terrorists. I disapprove of the loss of human life under almost any circumstance, but I am also moderately embarrassed that the US can be so ignorant of the world around us. Peace to all. Be kind to yourself and others.

P.S. while Jihad or holy war is a principle of Islam, for the most part it is not seen as an injunction to go out and kill the infidel.
From what I understand there is some belief Jihad is in fact meant to be a a spiritual war instead of a physical one, e.g. the war is to combat unbelief, not to physically destroy the unbelievers. Jihad is not anymore a reflection of general Muslim philosophy than the Crusades were a true reflection of Christian philosophy. In fact over history Muslims have been more tolerant of us as Christians, than we have been of them--Jews and Christians are both considered "People of the Book", meaning the bible, which is at least in part a part of the Koran, and thus are respected. I am a Christian and most of my knowledge about Islam comes from a course I took a few years ago on Islamic culture and history,and while it was incredibly interesting as well as enlightening, I am far from an expert on Islam so I may not have the facts precisely right. So if you know better please feel free to correct my errors. Now I'm done for real. Peace, thank you.

[Cyranox11]

I am not an apologist! Explaining (or attempting to explain) and apologising are two VERY different things. For the record I do not agree with everything in the article, but it does explain alot! With all respect many Americans often have a very limited view and understanding of their own government's actions and I was just positing an alternative view.

On the whole 'innocent' people thing, the idea is not to punish individuals by maiming or killing, but to punish the collective and to make a point about the supposed power relations in the world...

In war (which is what this is, make no mistake) there are no innocents: Think of the people of Dresden, Berlin, Ngasakki and Hiroshima. Think of the 'innocents' of Iraq, Iran and the Sudan. And thats not even considering the long term damage done by American retalliation on developing countries (eg wiping out Sudanese pharmaceutical production thus condemning thousands to death from disease). What about sanctions against Iraq which still cause many deaths every year???

You cant expect these people not to retalliate. Whether retalliation is right or wrong, appropriate or inappropriate or even a clever or stupid thing is a moot point, the issue is that eventually, pushed long and hard enough they will.

To Moon, negotiations between heads of state governments and even parallel bodies (eg the Taliban) go on officially and unofficially all the time. The US has been in reverse gear and attempting to disengage from as many of these negotiations as possible (eg Israel/Palestine). The US has made very clear its intentions to ignore what other states say or advise about international issues (eg missile shields, greenhouse gasses and even issues as 'academic' as racism and the 19th Century Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade). When your leaders withdraw from the room where they are 'decking it out' where else can the other people make their point?

[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Cyranox11 ]