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passata_sotto · 06-06-2006, 11:31 PM

If there is a thread regarding this subject please direct me there.

Would someone please explain the rules for cutoff dates for those fencers who fence by age:ie Y10, Y12, Y14.

As I understand it, the fencing season runs from 1 Aug - 31 July which puts Nationals at the end of the season. Birthdays for the season are figured from 1 January. Does this mean that if my son turns 11 on 10 Jan 2007 that for the 2007 - 2008 season he can fence Y10 until 1 Jan 2008 and then fences Y12 or does he fence Y12 starting in Aug 2007 because he will be 11 when the season begins?

There is a specific case that I am questioning - not my son - just using him for an example.

fencerbill · 06-06-2006, 11:38 PM

The fencers who are qualified to fence Y12 in October are still qualified to fence it in January. Don't the entry forms list years of birth, not age?

This situation goes in the box next to the one that says 4 year old classifications fade on August 1, You will get an A06 if you earn it on Dec 31, 2006 but if you earn it the next day, January 1, 2007 it will be an A07.

oiuyt · 06-07-2006, 12:04 AM

Also note that birth years are not handled the same way for vets as they are for youth.

To answer the question (well, one of them) in the OP, the hypothetical son would be able to fence Y10 (and Y12) until August 1st, 2008. August 1st, 2008 and later and he would no longer be eligible for Y10. He WOULD, however, have just become eligible for Y14 (assuming he wasn't already via Y12 points).

As of 1/1/07 he is 10. Therefore he is eligible for Y10 and Y12 for the 06-07 season. As of 1/1/08 he is 11. He is eligible for Y12 and Y14 for the 07-08 season.

Note that in the original post you referenced 1/1/07 and the 07-08 season. 1/1/07 is not in the 07-08 season, but rather is part of the 06-07 season.

The reason he fences Y12 in the 07-08 season is NOT because he is 11 at the start of the season, but rather because he is 11 at the middle of the season (more precisely, at the defined cut-off date).

-B

passata_sotto · 06-07-2006, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oiuyt

As of 1/1/07 he is 10. Therefore he is eligible for Y10 and Y12 for the 06-07 season. As of 1/1/08 he is 11. He is eligible for Y12 and Y14 for the 07-08 season.

Note that in the original post you referenced 1/1/07 and the 07-08 season. 1/1/07 is not in the 07-08 season, but rather is part of the 06-07 season.

The reason he fences Y12 in the 07-08 season is NOT because he is 11 at the start of the season, but rather because he is 11 at the middle of the season (more precisely, at the defined cut-off date).

-B

Thanks - that helps a lot

lindajdunn · 06-07-2006, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Also note that birth years are not handled the same way for vets as they are for youth.

-B

They're not?

How are they handled?

Peach · 06-07-2006, 12:06 PM

I believe veteran birth years are handled relative to the date of Veteran Worlds.

lindajdunn · 06-07-2006, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peach

I believe veteran birth years are handled relative to the date of Veteran Worlds.

Thanks. As my birthday is Bastille Day, this is probably going to impact when I move to V60.

One of our club members was looking forward to being a V40 next year. I'll have to check his birthdate and see if this impacts him as well.

fencerbill · 06-07-2006, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

Thanks. As my birthday is Bastille Day, this is probably going to impact when I move to V60.

One of our club members was looking forward to being a V40 next year. I'll have to check his birthdate and see if this impacts him as well.

Ho, Ho, Ho.

Where do you get off thinking it would be that logical?

The USFA starts off thinking about birth year. For the current year, you can fence Veterans if you were born in 1965 or earlier.

But which Veterans? That gets more complicated. There, the USFA defers to the FIE. The FIE has based its eligibility as of the first day of the month in which the World Championships are held. In 1999 and 2000, it was August 1 because in both years the championships were held in Hungary in August, near St. Stephens day I believe (National holiday).

But in 2001 the championships were held in France, but in the overseas department of Martinique, in May. Probably because that was the only time they could be sure there were no hurricanes, although I never heard anyone say so. So the eligibility was as of May 1, 2001.

Then things became more consistent. From 2002 to 2007, the eligibility date is September 1 because the championships were held, or scheduled to be held, in September. Are you following so far?

Up until the 2005-2006 season, the first two qualifiers were combined over 40 events so it didn't matter which age group you were in, they just sorted out the results into the correct age group after the event. For the summer championships, they would take the few people involved and sort them into the proper event. There were a few surprises as someone would compete in your age group when their results had previously not been reported in that age group ranking. I never heard anyone ever was prevented from qualifying, as long as you persevered.

This past year, there were age group qualifiers and everyone seemed to get sorted into the proper group.

It is still possible that after 2007 the eligibility date may wander depending on which countries are hosts, the hurricane season and national holidays. So stay tuned as you approach your transition year.

lindajdunn · 06-07-2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Ho, Ho, Ho.

It is still possible that after 2007 the eligibility date may wander depending on which countries are hosts, the hurricane season and national holidays. So stay tuned as you approach your transition year.

Great joy. And the date next to my name has been wrong from the beginning. I figure I have 5-6 years to get that corrected.

teacup · 06-07-2006, 04:16 PM

The US Summer Nationals are the end of the season for Y10, Y12 and Y14 which align with the USFA membership year.

The Cadet/Junior Worlds in April are the end of the season for Cadets and Juniors. Therefore the season begins with the April NAC and the Summer Nationals.

That is why the birth year changes for U16 and U19 for Summer National Qualifiers and the difference between the Y (youth) and U (under) title.

Cadet and Junior are FIE age groups.
Y10, Y12, Y14, U16 and U19 are USFA age groups.

For example, Canada's Nationals in May have U15, Junior, Cadet and team events.

Veterans and Seniors seasons end with their World Championships in September and October respectively.

oiuyt · 06-07-2006, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teacup

The Cadet/Junior Worlds in April are the end of the season for Cadets and Juniors. Therefore the season begins with the April NAC and the Summer Nationals.

That is why the birth year changes for U16 and U19 for Summer National Qualifiers and the difference between the Y (youth) and U (under) title.

To be more accurate, the birth years don't change, the allowed ages do. Junior events prior to Junior Worlds are U20, after Junior Worlds and prior to the start of the next season they're U19. How old one is (in fencing terms) doesn't change then, but what ages are eligible for the events does.

-B

KD5MDK · 06-07-2006, 06:24 PM

Explaining it that way clears up something that had been confusing me for some time. Likewise, Cadet is either U17 or U16 depending on the time of season?

oiuyt · 06-07-2006, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Explaining it that way clears up something that had been confusing me for some time. Likewise, Cadet is either U17 or U16 depending on the time of season?

Correct.

-B

Phincer · 06-08-2006, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Explaining it that way clears up something that had been confusing me for some time. Likewise, Cadet is either U17 or U16 depending on the time of season?

Well, now I have an answer for the fencer who has his birthday in October 89.

Seems he spent very little time in Cadet. Due to starting to fence late (at 14), he's never had a long time in any age group. This year's qualifiers, when he would have done well in U16, he was too old by 3 months. His buddy,who started fencing the same day as him, but birth year is 1990, could fence that age group.

That late birth month is a killer. Thank goodness he's in it for the love of the sport more than the ratings race. (not much more, but more-

)

teacup · 06-08-2006, 10:46 AM

That late birth month is a killer. Thank goodness he's in it for the love of the sport more than the ratings race. (not much more, but more-

)[/quote]

If you think October is bad, think of December kids. My daughter will be out of cadet and U16 before she is 15 1/2.
It is one reason for a child to fence up in age but only if they are ready.

teacup · 06-08-2006, 10:56 AM

If you think October is bad, think of December kids. My daughter will be out of cadet and U16 before she is 15 1/2.
It is one reason for a child to fence up in age but only if they are ready.[/quote]

Correction, her last Summer National event will be when she is 15 1/2. Her last and only cadet event at 16 will be the cadet event at JO's.

passata_sotto · 06-08-2006, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teacup

If you think October is bad, think of December kids. My daughter will be out of cadet and U16 before she is 15 1/2.
It is one reason for a child to fence up in age but only if they are ready.

I did not realise what a big deal this is until one of our coaches planned her next baby for January. My son's birthday is 10 Jan. He will still be able to fence at Nationals in 2007 as a Y10 at the age of 11 1/2.

teacup · 06-08-2006, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by passata_sotto

I did not realise what a big deal this is until one of our coaches planned her next baby for January. My son's birthday is 10 Jan. He will still be able to fence at Nationals in 2007 as a Y10 at the age of 11 1/2.

My daughter was due Jan. 28. She arrived six weeks early. Not great for her future fencing career but we did get a tax deduction.

In the long run it doesn't really matter.

oiuyt · 06-08-2006, 12:42 PM

If the difference between December and January briths were that significant then you'd never find fencers qualifying for national teams in a age-group higher than their current one. We'd never have cadet fencers on junior (or senior!) teams. Since we frequently do -- occasionally people will make teams multiple years before they age out of the previous category -- we have empirical evidence that a 1-month difference isn't "a killer".

Does it HELP to be an 11-year-old in a field of 10's? Of course. Does variation between the developmental rates of different individuals make a considerably larger difference? Absolutely.

-B

sjpfencer220 · 06-08-2006, 01:56 PM

For me, as a december birthday, it doesn't really matter that I'm not in y12, as opposed to haiving been born a month later, for example, and still being in 12. As I have fenced up since my first year of twelves, otherwise meaning that I have been in y14 for 3 years now, the only differnce between the past years of y14 is that there are a few less of the top-level people. The only part that annoys me about not being able to be in y12 is that I have such a strong year that I'm in and there is a vast difference beteween my year and the year after. For example, some of the top girls in my year were winning the y14 when they were in y12 anyway, whereas the year below us, with the exception of one girl 2 years younger, don't even make it to the top 8. Just my opinion...