06-05-2006, 04:53 AM
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#21 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
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Originally Posted by Jason I've never known that to be something exclusive to the young. | A point; but one suspects that this particular instance is largely confined to them. 
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06-05-2006, 04:54 AM
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#22 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
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Originally Posted by KD5MDK It's ok, the Founding Fathers dispaired of you too, and look how... oh wait, nevermind.  | Pfft! Those whippersnappers? As IF!
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06-05-2006, 04:55 AM
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#23 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
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Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson And what, pray tell, did your elders think of you when you were a teenager? | In order to know, I would have had to care enough to ask.
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06-05-2006, 04:55 AM
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#24 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
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Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken! They probably gave him **** for wearing white all the time. | My coat was of MANY colors.
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06-05-2006, 04:59 AM
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#25 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
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Originally Posted by KD5MDK I'm sure he was the most troublesome teenager the Carthagenians had ever seen. | There was no such thing as a "teenager" when I was young. You passed from childhood to manhood with puberty. Adolescence is a modern concept. As indeed the Inq is NOT.
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06-05-2006, 05:07 AM
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#26 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: London
Posts: 1,216
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Originally Posted by Inquartata Color me unimpressed. | I never thought the day would come when you would *ask* to be colored! | |
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06-05-2006, 07:36 AM
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#27 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,059
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Originally Posted by Inquartata They aren't "rebels", either. They're just vandals. And criminals.
Color me unimpressed. | A rebel is no more than a vandal and a criminal with an adapted set of ideals and beliefs ot justify his her actions. They only become rebels when history shines favorably upon them. | |
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06-05-2006, 08:22 AM
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#28 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
Posts: 23,752
| So, hackers and George Washington are equivalent!
Brother.... 
Hackers are malicious maladjusted children pulling the wings off flies. That they do it with whizz-bang technology alters that not a jot.
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06-05-2006, 10:40 AM
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#29 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Melbourne, North Korea
Posts: 305
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Originally Posted by Inquartata Hackers are malicious maladjusted children pulling the wings off flies. That they do it with whizz-bang technology alters that not a jot. | What you are referring to here and in general, is more than likely a script kiddie, which more often than not, get lumped under the term hacker. A script kiddie is generally a teen with not enough knowledge to discover themselves or write exploits, but through some misfortune of the universe has enough cunning to be able to use tools that others have created, to further their own ends. More often than not these comprise destructive acts.
By definition, a hacker is not necessarily a person who exploits something for their own ends. A hacker is somebody who explores a system, program or device for weaknesses. They may then go a step further and exploit the weakness that they've found, attempt to correct the code or more often than not simply notify the originators of the code that they have a weakness.
Instead of being annoyed with the moral-less kiddies who will probably grow up to live the majority of their lives in their bedrooms playing games, downing limitless cans of soft drink and the social skills of a mop, why not get angry at the progenitors of the dodgy code in the first place? Surely the onus is on them to limit the holes in their code to minimise malicious exploitation. | |
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06-05-2006, 10:52 AM
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#30 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
Posts: 23,752
| Right. And all those murder victims should have been wearing body armor. Really! The nerve of the justice system, convicting their killers!
Meh. This is known as 'blaming the victim'. 
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06-05-2006, 11:00 AM
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#31 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 9,089
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Originally Posted by Monash_Armourer Instead of being annoyed with the moral-less kiddies who will probably grow up to live the majority of their lives in their bedrooms playing games, downing limitless cans of soft drink and the social skills of a mop, why not get angry at the progenitors of the dodgy code in the first place? Surely the onus is on them to limit the holes in their code to minimise malicious exploitation. | :eyeroll:
You were going somewhere with the defense of hackers and distinguishing them from the overwhelmingly greater numbers of script kiddies. But when you start posting this about the SKs....
The onus is on the designers or the security system of the Munch Museum in Oslo to keep The Scream safe. Don't get annoyed with the armed robbers (rare in the art world) who stole it. Walking down the street of a bad neighborhood it's YOUR responsibility to be able to prevent any possible mugging. Don't blame the one-man crimewave that demands your wallet.
When tasked with protection/prevention does one have responsibility? Absolutely. Does that mean that the exploiters of any lapse get a free pass? Hardly. It's still completely legitimate to condemn their anti-social and frequently illegal behavior.
-B
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06-05-2006, 11:06 AM
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#32 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
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| And as for grading hackers on the basis of skill: The dashing, handsome international jewel thief is just as much a crook as the most dimwitted drug-addled smash-and-grab burglar ripping off a pawn shop...
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06-05-2006, 11:11 AM
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#33 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 9,089
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Originally Posted by Inquartata And as for grading hackers on the basis of skill: The dashing, handsome international jewel thief is just as much a crook as the most dimwitted drug-addled smash-and-grab burglar ripping off a pawn shop... | Agreed. This is more my idea of who reflects being a true hacker.
-B
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06-05-2006, 11:18 AM
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#34 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,325
| Inq
I think you are missing the point that true hackers, are not hacking to be malicious and often times try to help the designers of the website that they are hacking into by pointing out the flaws so the code can be improved and the site made more secure.
It is more like someone who is really good at burglary, figuring out how someone could rob the place and then telling the owners, so they dont get burglarized by someone else. | |
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06-05-2006, 11:58 AM
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#35 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Melbourne, North Korea
Posts: 305
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Originally Posted by oiuyt The onus is on the designers or the security system of the Munch Museum in Oslo to keep The Scream safe. Don't get annoyed with the armed robbers (rare in the art world) who stole it. Walking down the street of a bad neighborhood it's YOUR responsibility to be able to prevent any possible mugging. Don't blame the one-man crimewave that demands your wallet.-B | You cannot compare the theft of an object at gunpoint, a violent act which has little to no forewarning, to the eventual exploitation of buggy code that vendors such as Symanteh and Microsoft are supposedly responsible for. Sometimes they have months and months between when a bug is publicly outed on newsgroups, and any eventual patch to address the issue is offered.
If it takes a seriously misuse of such a bug, to prompt an eventual response from whoever maintains the software, then yes, it is most definitely their fault.
Edit: Spelling.
Last edited by Monash_Armourer; 06-05-2006 at 12:02 PM.
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06-05-2006, 12:51 PM
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#36 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
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Originally Posted by Monash_Armourer You cannot compare the theft of an object at gunpoint, a violent act which has little to no forewarning, to the eventual exploitation of buggy code that vendors such as Symanteh and Microsoft are supposedly responsible for. Sometimes they have months and months between when a bug is publicly outed on newsgroups, and any eventual patch to address the issue is offered.
If it takes a seriously misuse of such a bug, to prompt an eventual response from whoever maintains the software, then yes, it is most definitely their fault.
Edit: Spelling. | So if I tell a person that they are vulnerable to being robbed at gunpoint and then proceed to do so (or if anyone else proceeds to do so) at some future point in time THEN I can blame the victim? What if you are given "months and months" between when you're alerted and when the robbery takes place for you to patch your buggy security systems?
Again, can the software companies be reasonably held to a standard of protection and security? Absolutely. Does this in any way release the script kiddies from universal condemnation? Absolutely not. What they do is Wrong. Whether others could have prevented it (or made it harder) and failed to do so is almost completely immaterial. It's rediculous to just wave off any blame on the miscreants -- even if they will spend their lives pathetically holed up in Mommy's basement swilling Jolt and Vault -- and redirect it to the victimized corporations who "should have" prevented the crime from being possible.
Anyone else think this has thread-drifted into WC (or possibly even politics, depending on how loose a definition one has) territory?
-B
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06-05-2006, 04:48 PM
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#37 | | Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,235
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Originally Posted by Inquartata There was no such thing as a "teenager" when I was young. You passed from childhood to manhood with puberty. Adolescence is a modern concept. As indeed the Inq is NOT. | There was a reason I picked the term teenager. Unlike other concepts, all societies have had persons who were aged between 13 and 19, even if they didn't classify them as different. Quote: |
In order to know, I would have had to care enough to ask.
| John McCain had a very entertaining statement along those lines recently. Quote: |
My coat was of MANY colors.
| Think of all the trouble you'd have saved if you just gave in to Potiphar's wife. | |
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06-05-2006, 05:16 PM
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#38 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 1,252
| You know, given Inq's curmudgeonly attitude, it's quite possible that when he was growing up, no one had invented numbers yet. . .
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06-06-2006, 01:16 AM
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#39 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
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Originally Posted by KD5MDK There was a reason I picked the term teenager. Unlike other concepts, all societies have had persons who were aged between 13 and 19, even if they didn't classify them as different. | Inq's almost right. "Teenager" as a word dates back to 1941.
-B
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06-06-2006, 01:28 AM
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#40 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Melbourne, North Korea
Posts: 305
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Originally Posted by oiuyt So if I tell a person that they are vulnerable to being robbed at gunpoint and then proceed to do so (or if anyone else proceeds to do so) at some future point in time THEN I can blame the victim? What if you are given "months and months" between when you're alerted and when the robbery takes place fo | | |
