Advice from the Armory

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

I have a question though. As far as masks that fail punch test, why can't you give them back and allow them to get fixed in situations where it's warranted? I had a saber mask failed for the entire week of nationals once becuase there a piece of mesh that was a little far apart on the edge over the tongue....why not give it back and let me move that little piece into place and fence instead of making me spend a couple hundred bucks to buy a new one?

Does the name Vladimir Smirnov mean anything to you???

[KD5MDK]

5/6 One Eyed Women's Epee fencers agree: Smirnov Ice is the drink of choice.
The other drinks neat scotch.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

I have a question though. As far as masks that fail punch test, why can't you give them back and allow them to get fixed in situations where it's warranted? I had a saber mask failed for the entire week of nationals once becuase there a piece of mesh that was a little far apart on the edge over the tongue....why not give it back and let me move that little piece into place and fence instead of making me spend a couple hundred bucks to buy a new one?

It does depend on the exact situation. It is true as Don has said, that it can again fail a punch test after you have moved the wires back. And even if it doesn't it will likely fail sooner there than elsewhere during later testing.

A recurrent problem with many makes of masks is what do you do when the size mark or other added fluff comes off the mesh? With Allstar/Uhlmann masks and others this is an infrequent but real problem. Because they were originally welded, the location can afterwards be weaker and sometimes fail a punch test. Does this mean that the mesh was inadequate? Usually not. In some of these occurrences I have repaired the mask with a steel pop rivet and backer plate.

I have also encountered some isolated cases of a broken mesh wire where the rest of the mesh was good. These I have also repaired with a steel pop rivet and backer plate. More likely when it is back of the band and not when it is in front of an eye.

I am by no means saying every mesh problem can be fixed with steel pop rivets. I would have to see BigDawg's mask to know if it could be done in his case. It should be left up to an armorer experienced with dealing with these problems to make the decision.

If there is any doubt replace the mask. Save the questionable masks until you find an armorer qualified to make these decisions.

[bigdawg2121]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

It does depend on the exact situation. It is true as Don has said, that it can again fail a punch test after you have moved the wires back. And even if it doesn't it will likely fail sooner there than elsewhere during later testing.

A recurrent problem with many makes of masks is what do you do when the size mark or other added fluff comes off the mesh? With Allstar/Uhlmann masks and others this is an infrequent but real problem. Because they were originally welded, the location can afterwards be weaker and sometimes fail a punch test. Does this mean that the mesh was inadequate? Usually not. In some of these occurrences I have repaired the mask with a steel pop rivet and backer plate.

I have also encountered some isolated cases of a broken mesh wire where the rest of the mesh was good. These I have also repaired with a steel pop rivet and backer plate. More likely when it is back of the band and not when it is in front of an eye.

I am by no means saying every mesh problem can be fixed with steel pop rivets. I would have to see BigDawg's mask to know if it could be done in his case. It should be left up to an armorer experienced with dealing with these problems to make the decision.

If there is any doubt replace the mask. Save the questionable masks until you find an armorer qualified to make these decisions.

In the case I was refering to it was a fixable problem and was subsequently fixed. Not to mention that given the location of the failed bit (as I said before at the back edge directly over the tongue) I'd have a lot more to worry about if it resulted in my losing an eye.

[DHCJr]

I agree with both the last post. I did not read as carefully as I should.

[remise]

Originally Posted by Mergs

Great run down!

I would also suggest to fencers/parents that if your equipment fails, it fails. And yes, equipment purchased moments before from a vendor can also fail (last time I checked, none of them offer a guarantee that their stuff will pass, but most will replace it immediately if it does fail, and you have the receipt!). If you wish to discuss the issue, please do so when there is not a long line of folks waiting to get their stuff checked.

Also, remember that the folks in the Armory are the experts, but they may ask for a second opinion from either their collegues or the Head Armorer to be doubly sure of their finding. That doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing, it's just that they want to give you, the fencer, the benefit of any doubt before pronouncing judgement. Once the 'verdict' is rendered, it is done. Yelling and screaming and acting the a** may result in a red or black card. Yes, they are authorized to do that!

And don't forget the Tip Jar. Beer works, too.

And, also the armorers are there to help. We're not trying to pick on anybody. No one likes looking at a fencer or a parent and saying that something fails. We feel bad having to do that, even though we do it for safety issues.

I will always be grateful to Michael for coming to my 'rescue' at a large tournament when the mask punch I had went right through one fencer's mask, and the parent of the fencer was up in my face and yelling. Had you not intervened on my behalf that day, Michael, I would probably not have armored again for another tournament. As it is, I've taught at least 9 more people basic armoring. We need to spread the 'love'.

[Mergs]

Originally Posted by remise

I will always be grateful to Michael for coming to my 'rescue'

I'm glad that I was able to help defuse the situation. And that is one of the reasons to have more than one Armorer working a tournament.

[fatfencer]

ya know I've been reading this post for awhile now. It still bugs me. There was a novice tourney held at my club a couple of years ago. I failed like 6 masks or so. I had a parent get uppity as we had ordered these masks and they paid for them. They were new JL masks.

I had to show a parent how soft the mesh was.. with my thumb. Needless to say they all failed the punch test.

I asked the parent 'are you really stupid enough to suggest that I allow YOUR child to wear this mask? You don't think of me as stupid do you?'

I proceeded to tell them the Smirnov story.

That's usually what it takes unfortunately to get a parent's attention and snap them back to a reality where spending $49.00 for a chinese mask doesn't allow them a 'get out of stupid' free card.

FF

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by fatfencer

ya know I've been reading this post for awhile now. It still bugs me. There was a novice tourney held at my club a couple of years ago. I failed like 6 masks or so. I had a parent get uppity as we had ordered these masks and they paid for them. They were new JL masks.

I had to show a parent how soft the mesh was.. with my thumb. Needless to say they all failed the punch test.

I asked the parent 'are you really stupid enough to suggest that I allow YOUR child to wear this mask? You don't think of me as stupid do you?'

I proceeded to tell them the Smirnov story.

That's usually what it takes unfortunately to get a parent's attention and snap them back to a reality where spending $49.00 for a chinese mask doesn't allow them a 'get out of stupid' free card.

FF

Were those JLs the ones with the triangular cheek plate? That steel WAS weak....it's gotten better, tho. however, i still usually push Uhlmanns on people likely to be fencing someone with some degree of strength, power, and accuracy.

Now little kiddies who's idea of a parry is to swing the blade in an arc big enough to cover three strips? JLs are fine there....

[Zmiter]

Hello colegues.
Im new. Armorer of 20 years length of service.
Do you have the Prieur reels? Im looking for the three-twisted reinforced cable with kevlar(as a core) for repairing.
Would you be so kind to let me know at least the exact tape/mark of this cable? Or you know where this cable is available to buy. I need at least 500 meters.

Thanls in advance.

Zmiter. Minsk Belarus

[Swordmaster]

Originally Posted by yeoldearmourer

One word of advice to the armorers working fresh batteries in your test equipment. And if it seems your are failing a large amount of equipment have a another armourer double check some of the fail items. At one NAC I started to get a large amount of BCords failure all comeing from one armourer all had
the same problems turn out his test box had a loose connect and everytime he move the cord the connect failed.

Dead Batteries, loose connections, poorly designed meter sets, using the wrong meter (too high of an ohm scale), too much scotch the night before all add to the issue of not having standardized equipment at the armory (well maybe not the last one...). At least all meters should be check with a device that can verify that: A. They are all reading the same and B. There are no loose connections....every morning! Merely zeroing a meter with poor batteries is not enough. They need to be check at a set ohm value to assure accuracy across the table.
If you are interested in such a device contact me, TwisterFencing or BigDan - just to name a few.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Zmiter

Hello colegues.
Im new. Armorer of 20 years length of service.
Do you have the Prieur reels? Im looking for the three-twisted reinforced cable with kevlar(as a core) for repairing.
Would you be so kind to let me know at least the exact tape/mark of this cable? Or you know where this cable is available to buy. I need at least 500 meters.

Thanls in advance.

Zmiter. Minsk Belarus

I was advised a few years ago by Ted Li, a very experienced US armorer, that the wire sold by Triplette Fencing in the US was his best recommendation for a source in the US for replacing wire in Prieur reels.

I don't know if they still have it or if what they have now is the best for this use. Be careful, at the time he said they had 2 types of wire, one with and one without what you call Kevlar core. He recommended with the core.

We have about 3 years ago purchased replacement wire directly from Prieur themselves. It was very frustrating. Poor communication, took a long time, very expensive and more exact to say they sent us what they wanted to send us, not what we wanted to buy.

No one else has suggested anything better than Triplette, I haven't purchased from them myself and the advice was several years ago. Good luck.