Ethical questions RE Div 1 fencer in Div II/III at Sum Nats...

[CvilleFencer]

Okay, this is a hypothetical question that I am interested to get everyone’s opinion on. Me and a couple of my club mates have been discussing it and trying to decide what to fence at Summer Nationals.

Okay, let’s say that you were a C or D fencer at the time of your Division Quals. Later on in the season, after qualifying, you earned and A or B rating but either did so after Sectionals (hence you can't qualify Div I) or you missed sectionals for some other non-waiverable reason (like being in the SES or PCS and just not being able to afford to go!). The question is this. Would it be ethical/decent to fence Div II/III events at Sum Nats even though you are no longer technically a Div II/III fencer? How bout if that was the only way you could fence at Sum Nats?

I will post a poll for this one also, but I would really like to hear well reasoned and thought out responses on this. Thanks all!

[mrbiggs]

Yes.

1. The tournaments are for fun

2. Earning an A or B is far from guaranteeing a win

3. You increase the level of the tournament. (Div3 was a B3 last year. Div2 could be an A3 or an A2/B3)

4. Everyone else usually has to beat Division 1 fencers to get a division 1 rating, and there's no harm to have division2/3 nationals be the same.

[bigdawg2121]

Ummm, yes it's ethical. It happens all the time and really the people that are going to be competitive in that event are probably still competitive even with the new A/B. Go for it and HAVE FUN!!!

btw...poll is flawed....arguably Div 1A is for scrubs too.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

btw...poll is flawed....arguably Div 1A is for scrubs too.

So anyone over 19 and under 40 who wants to fence in nationals but doesn't have points is a scrub? Wow, high standards.

(Not that there aren't SOME scrubs in Div1A, but almost all tournaments have some scrubs. That doesn't make the tournament for scrubs.)

[bigdawg2121]

I'm just saying....if you're going to be elitist, do it right. 1As isn't all that special necessarily, especially when they're after their respective Div 1s. Maybe back when it was a legit warmup for 1s, but not now.

[Mr Epee]

In your poll... (which sucks) I assumed that you meant div 1 ... and not Div 1A....

Div 1A is what Div 2 was 10 years ago...

Only scubs compete in Div 1A...

Sorry.

[Peach]

For the uniniated, a scub is a scuba diver without a snorkel.

[Poulet]

It's the same ****ing person whether s/he has an A or a U.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Would it be ethical/decent to fence Div II/III events at Sum Nats even though you are no longer technically a Div II/III fencer? How bout if that was the only way you could fence at Sum Nats?

Even if I qualified Div 1A at Sectionals, I'd still go and do Div II and maybe Div III if I could. It's the last time in at least 4 years the fencer will be able to fence in Div II. Might as well go and have a blast. If you check the ratings of fencers in those events, there are always a handful of people who are now above the rating restriction. Nothing wrong with that as far as I can see.

If the rating wasn't a fluke, then the fencer is probably on the cusp of a transition. He should go and try to do well in Div II/III events and get some experience in Div 1A. Depending on the fencer, he might really get stomped in Div 1A. Fencing well against a few tough fencers in DEs to get your A or B is much different from something like a Div I NAC or Div 1A event at Nationals. Everyone in your pool is strong, and you better show up relaxed and ready to fence hard. Otherwise, you won't even make the cut out of pools. That's one reason (I'm assuming) that there's an overlap in the rating requirements for fencing at NACS: between Div III and Div II and between Div II and Div I. Once a fencer earns a C, he cannot fence Div III. He can still fence Div II and start getting experience in Div 1A. Someone who jumps from a D to a B is hopefully very good because he doesn't have that season or two of renewing his C to fence Div II competitively and Div I NACs/Div 1A Nationals to get used to the competition at that level.

Perspective from a "scrub" with no nationals points in any weapon.

[Peach]

A point of clarification, which Mr. Epee alluded to: Div 1A is approximately the same as (or worse than) Div II in intensity and quality of fencing. It is open to any fencer who can qualify for it through the section competitions. Because many people who do Division I do not bother to enter the qualifying competitions for Div 1A, people who are relatively less skilled can qualify from many sections. Many coaches who are bringing up young fencers have them enter the Div II for experience rather than the 1A, or simply concentrate on the age-restricted championships.

The 1A is a great event for people (like me) who for some reason have earned a higher classification and can no longer fence in the Div II, but who are not eligible to fence in the Division I, but I would not consider it an elite event. Although for true weirdness it does not approach the Division III, it often has some very . . . idiosyncratic fencing going on in the pools.

If you qualify for the Div II and then earn a higher classification, go ahead and fence.

[CvilleFencer]

Yeah, thanks for catching/explaining my mix-up in terminology Peach. That's what I get for trying to post after one in the morning...

[Frank Pratt]

I said "no," but I guess it depends on what level you're actually fencing at. If your "B" or higher rating is inflated, then getting your butt kicked at a Div II or III competition is a good way to prove the point. On the other hand, I don't think an "A" rated Div III fencer deserves to be given one of the top seeds if they are not any better than the rest of the fencers.

[TitanHawk]

I was an E at the time of division qualifications. Afterwards I earned my C and I'm going to fence in Div III.

[epeeisky]

I am a DIV III fencer, and the entire reason I am going is to get experience with fencing outside my geographic region. The more people I get to fence the more experience I get, so I am fine with it.

[Allen Evans]

This thread is a temptest in a teapot. You qualified, you fence, so what?

I've seen a lot of "B" level fencers, for instance, in Div 2. I fenced my last Div 2 Nationals as a "B", and, incidently, only made the 24 or so.

[Peach]

OTOH, I fenced my last Div II (in 1998) as a "D" and earned a "B," dagnabbit, which meant I couldn't do it any more--and it's right about the right level for me.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Its not like the guy has Sr Points. He's a newly minted B, its fine to fence div 2. Especially since he already registered.

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Its not like the guy has Sr Points. He's a newly minted B, its fine to fence div 2. Especially since he already registered.

I think this is a big reason to allow these fencers to compete in the events. It would certainly suck if you made hotel/airline reservations to compete in one or more Div II/III events only to be disqualified a couple of weeks before the event upon earning your "A" or "B." Granted, some of these fencers already have their "A" or "B" when they pre-register (e.g. the winner of the Div III Divisional Qualifier who earns his "C" at that event.)

[oiuyt]

You fit the criteria set by the USFA to fence an event, there's nothing wrong with fencing that event.

Several years ago when Div I NACs were D and up I know a fencer who qualified for D3, D2, D1A, and D1 in the same year. He fenced all four (winning D3). Nothing unethical about it. He qualified for the events in question.

-B

[Joan of Ark]

I recently earned my B. I am still going to fence Div 2 at nationals. I like fencing. I would fence veterans if they would let me, but since I'm still in cadet I don't think they will.
Fence it. Make them happy they'll never see you in that event again.