Back knee pain: foot-angle adjustment?

[luv2fence]

Reading recent posts, I noticed that the
Off-side (back) knee and the Weapon-side
hip are problems for people. I have
discomfort in these joints also.

Has anyone experimented with a toe-forward
on the back-leg? Does it provide some relief
to the knee?

I have head some East Europeans have a foot
position similar to this.

My view: better to fence with sub-optimal
style, than not fence at all. However, I
hate to go against current conventional
foot-work, if there is no expectation that
it will help my knee. So, any experiences?

luv2fence

[greenchick]

I shifted the angle of my back foot forward, not all the way, but to a noticeably more acute angle than the traditional position I'd started with, because it was the only way I could move on the strip without pain in my back knee and ankle. In my case, it's made a huge difference. The knee pain is gone; I still tape the ankle, but I can use it without any pain as long as I do so; and my game is more athletic overall. And even if it weren't quite that successful, it's as you say: better to fence imperfectly than not be able to fence at all.

Be aware that if you do this, you may find that it changes your whole footwork style and not just the angle of one foot -- take the time to feel out the foot angle that works best for you, to retrain your muscle memory for what footwork should feel like, and (if it comes to that) to adjust your tactics to account for the shift in your center of gravity. It helps to work with a coach who really knows how to teach footwork, and to videotape and/or work with mirrors to make sure that you've got everything aligned right until you get a feel for it.

[Ordway]

Having the back foot forward is NOT an "imperfect" stance; it is simply a different one. If you observe sabre fencers, you will see that it is often an optimal stance for that weapon.

I have my back foot angled forward. It is part of my overall stance, which is fairly "forward" and aggressive (I am, after all, a sabrist). I do not have any problems whatsoever with my back knee.

One of my students was having trouble with her back knee and hip, and as soon as I modified her stance to be more "forward" like this, the pain stopped. This was a nice side effect since the objective was a better and more effective stance - so we killed two birds with one stone.

It does require a different stance and weight distribution to be effective, I think. No clue how well it would work with epee or foil fencers.

[greenchick]

Nah, of course it's imperfect. Every style is imperfect, or at least I haven't found a perfect one yet -- but what it's not is (as the original post put it) sub-optimal. For me, it is optimal: not just pain-free, but much better. For someone else... who knows. For foil and epee, I can't even begin to guess.

I certainly could've worded the post better, but my point was that it's worth some work to find what works for you, even if it's not what you originally learned was "standard" or "conventional" or some other equally loaded word.

[qatet]

On the other hand, both the pain in the knee and in the hip are usually mitigated with simple physical therapy exercises (or by pre-emptive balancing through weight-lifting) and stretches. Changing the stance is not the only solution, nor should it necessarily be the first solution.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by greenchick

or work with mirrors

Oh no! You've discovered my secret.

It's not really a parry. See? It's all done with mirrors.

[luv2fence]

gatet,
Can you supply some more detail on
the exercises?

In your observations, did the
exercises work as preventive or
therapeutic?

Have these worked on different kinds
of fencers: old/young, fat/thin?

luv2fence

[qatet]

Originally Posted by luv2fence

gatet,
Can you supply some more detail on
the exercises?

In your observations, did the
exercises work as preventive or
therapeutic?

Have these worked on different kinds
of fencers: old/young, fat/thin?

luv2fence

I'm not a doctor, and don't life to give medical advice over the internet. If you are having pain, really, your first stop should be the doctor's office.

Most of the problems that people have with their back knee are from muscular imbalances in the leg, often patella-femoral syndrome. Generally strengthening all of the muscles in the back leg helps fix this, but there is usually specific focus on the inner band of the quad through exercises like straight leg lifts. Again, I don't like giving medical advice, but you could probably play with google if you really want internet yahoos diagnosing you.

The hip pain is often from the hip flexors getting tight. An easy way to stretch it is to place the knee of the sore leg on a bench or chair, then drop your center of gravity down and somewhat forward (bend your other knee and hop that foot forward, if necessary). You should feel the stretch just below your hip bone. Again, a visit to the doctor will help you figure out the nature of the problem, and some ways to solve it.

I was initially given my therapy as, well therapy. My college didn't have trainers for club sports, and I wasn't very strong and didn't know much about my body, so I ended up in physical therapy quite often. Now I use a few of them preventively, or bring them back if things feel like they want to cause trouble. My real solution now is weight-lifting, which is why I laugh every time people try to claim that you don't need weight-lifting to be a fencer, and that fencing is exercise enough in and of itself.

As far as I've seen, the basic exercises are the same for all ages, shapes, etc. The problem is the same, so the solution is, too.