Can a contact of blades in foil be something other then a parry/prise de fer/beat?

[jBirch]

Well, can it? Can you touch blades intentionally in foil and not be peforming either a beat, a prise-de-fer or a parry? Can you engage the blade intentionally and not be awarded ROW?

Note: This was sparked by some comments in the "Tips on determining beat vs. parry" thread.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Can you engage the blade intentionally and not be awarded ROW?

Assuming your opponent isn't ALSO engaging the blade intentionally, no.

-m

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Can you engage the blade intentionally and not be awarded ROW?

Yes. If you engage the blade after your opponent has scored against you.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Well, can it? Can you touch blades intentionally in foil and not be peforming either a beat, a prise-de-fer or a parry? Can you engage the blade intentionally and not be awarded ROW?

I have been known to call attack, counter-attack even if the defender meets his opponent's blade. Basically, there are some actions that just look like an attempt to counter-attack with opposition to me. In that case, I expect the counter-attack to prevent the attack from arriving at all. I don't consider that attack as over with the blade contact.

With a parry-riposte, I expect to see a motion to hit the blade and a riposte. If the defender extends straight out into the attack, possibly into the attacker's line, I generally call it as a counter attack even if I hear blade contact in the middle of the defender's extension.

Not sure whether I explained that well.

[sabreur]

I am not a foilist, but I'm fairly sure that the rules discuss a "grazing contact" of the blades, which does not win ROW for the instigator.

[Feraud]

There’s a passage there in the rules covering the “beat attack” that says merely touching the opponents blade isn’t sufficient. It’s not clear whether this applies to parries as well. In practice I’ve never seen a Ref say a beat or parry was too light, as such calls seem to be way to subjective.
Like the Ref saying:
“You parried but didn’t parry enough” or “your beat attack wasn’t with sufficient force”

If even a small extension of the arm is considered an attack, then a small blade contact should still be a parry.

[seven6ty]

If you get hit when you attempt to parry their blade, you didn't parry.

[Fechter1]

Originally Posted by Feraud

If even a small extension of the arm is considered an attack, then a small blade contact should still be a parry.

A small extension might be considered PART of an attack, but if the attack does not yield the intended result (i.e. hitting valid target), it does not gain ROW, as it is insufficient. In my mind, something similar could be applied to the parry: Sufficient only if it succeeds as intended, i.e. deflecting the attacking point.

$.02, feel free to disregard, as I am an incurable epeeist...

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Well, can it? Can you touch blades intentionally in foil and not be peforming either a beat, a prise-de-fer or a parry? Can you engage the blade intentionally and not be awarded ROW?

Note: This was sparked by some comments in the "Tips on determining beat vs. parry" thread.

A press is an attaque au fer, not a prise de fer, and yet it is not a beat. From a refereeing point of view, though, it would be treated the same as a beat.

That's probably not really what you're after, though. But I'd say you can engage the blade -- just engage -- and not be attacking. It doesn't come up all often in the modern game. Still, I might engage your blade for the sole purpose of getting some blade feel to help me know what you're going to do. Or I might do it because I know you'll disengage and attack me when I do,and I'm setting up for that. Or I might do it just because it annoys you. That can be fun.

[jdoiv]

Originally Posted by Fechter1

A small extension might be considered PART of an attack, but if the attack does not yield the intended result (i.e. hitting valid target), it does not gain ROW, as it is insufficient. In my mind, something similar could be applied to the parry: Sufficient only if it succeeds as intended, i.e. deflecting the attacking point.

$.02, feel free to disregard, as I am an incurable epeeist...

an extension that is threating and hits non-valid target is called, "attack non-valid" all subsequent actions by the defender are moot. Nothing done, center is here, en guard, ready, fence.....

The rules don't say small extension or large extension. Just extension.

[KD5MDK]

I think a blade contact parallel to the blade, as opposed to anything resembling perpendicular, would fall under the excluded category of "grazes".

[keropie]

Beats/blade takes/grazes/presses/etc. don't per se gain ROW. It's the attack afterwards that gains ROW. So sure, you can beat, stand there, get hit, and then counterattack, and you beat and never had ROW ('beat preparation, attack, continuation, attack arrives'). But assuming that you 'immediately' execute the attack after the beat or what not, you'll have ROW. The only exception I've seen is when the blade contact is so far down the opponent's blade that the official calls 'attack in opposition arrives' (meaning, of course, that while you attempted to parry/beat, you never controlled the action, and the opponent's attack arrived).

^^