any helpful hints to prevent burnout?

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by prototoast

Practical suggestions are to not worry about the SATs. Just take 'em and then take 'em again. No need to prep and stuff. Also, don't bother visiting colleges. You can figure out where you want to go after you've been accepted.

Both of those depend: if she tends to do well on standardized tests, i agree. Otherwise, buy a book.

Actually, no, I mostly just disagree with the second one. Once she comes up with a vague list of where she wants to apply, visit a couple of them. (when they're in session!!!!) Try to visit schools that are vastly different- it's even better if they're close to each other. A good example is UMass-Amherst and Amherst. or UMass and Smith. It's usually fairly obvious if the overall ambiance of a college is blatently wrong. if one huge state university is very wrong for your daughter, they probably all are. (a caution--- women's colleges each have VERY different feels.....)


when she thinks she needs a break from something, take it. the past two years, between collegiate club nationals and memorial day weekend, i've fenced almost not at all, and it's been a good thing. by the time i start fencing again, i'm dying to do it. (and my body has mostly gotten over the college season....)


in applying to colleges: Common App is your friend. Write one essay after looking at the prompts of all of the schools. don't go overboard.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by Prateek73

First of all, does the daughter only fence competitively or only for recreation?

Given she's starting the international circuit, I doubt it's pure recreation.

Also, I'd like to say that as a very happy state school grad, it's just as good a fit for some people as the private schools that everybody goes crazy about.

[sleepyweasle]

Thanks everybody - a lot of this advice is very helpful. I will definitely be paaing it on to my daughter.

(whether she'll listen or not... )

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Come on now. That's too harsh. Let her try it. If she can't handle it and her grades suffer or she starts to go crazy, that's when you take off the fencing. I know kids with schedules like this that can handle it.

It's not too harsh to teach your kids how to manage their time and commitments. It is our responsibility as parents to do that. If we don't teach them how to do this, we set them up for failure later in life.

I think, if you re-read my post, that you and I (and everyone else who might disagree with my post) are actually saying the same thing. Some people do not know how to say "no" to themselves. They take on more and more and more until they overload, do a poor job at everything, and disappoint everyone they've made commitments to. My brother does that. He's getting better with age and wisdom, but he still overcommits sometimes. I've been there myself, and still am from time to time.

The line between "just enough" and "too much" varies from person to person and with the magnitude and multitude of the tasks taken on. The question raised in the original post was how to prevent the kid from taking on too much and burning out - i.e. failing at everything. The key to preventing the problem is in prioritizing the activities, estimating how much time/energy each will take, figuring out how many hours in a day the kid needs for each, understanding that ultimately there are only 24, managing time, monitoring the kid's performance, and making adjustments as necessary. Sometimes, making an adjustment means saying "No" to something.

One of the problems that happens when a person fills their schedule to the max is that life comes out of left field and throws something unexpected. Family illness, injury, financial issues, etc. When that happens, we find ourselves overloaded. If we do not prioritize and keep our commitments reasonable, we will find ourselves behind the eight-ball when that happens.

Note that I never suggested giving up fencing. I only said that they need to figure out what is important and what cannot be deferred, and put those items at the top of the priority list, then taking the things that cannot be crammed into a 24 hour day and taking them off the list until later in life.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Also, I'd like to say that as a very happy state school grad, it's just as good a fit for some people as the private schools that everybody goes crazy about.

Let me clarify my viewpoint-- There exist some schools that are better for some people than others. Some people will succeed at small private colleges, some people will feel suffocated. Some will love the Ivy Leage atmosphere, others won't. Some will rejoice in a big state school, others will feel lost. The point is that usually, if you're not going to do well at one huge state college, you don't need to visit 3 large state schools to know that. Usually if you'll feel bored by rural or suburban schools, you don't have to visit every school in western MA to know that. If you'll feel overwhelmed by a city like Boston, you probably don't need to visit schools in NYC as well.


I was pressured like crazy by my family and high school to apply to a couple Ivies. I didn't, because I didn't want to go to an Ivy. The only Ivy I would have really considered was Brown, and a school is just too close if you can bike there, and have spent 11 years of your life in their sports complex already.




There are a number of threads you can find using the "search" function about how to weigh fencing as a factor when picking a college. Most of us have aired our beliefs on how to do it in a reasonable and mature manner. Or, y'know, the way we think is best. Or, y'know, the way we did it, anyway.

[airathanas]

Two things-

proper time management and make sure she takes time off from fencing once in a while (even if it's against her will). Though many people may disagree, it's healthy to have a life outside of fencing.

[swordsen]

"Though many people may disagree, it's healthy to have a life outside of fencing."

What!?!?! There is life outside fencing? Blasphemy!!!!!!

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by parrythis

The key to preventing the problem is in prioritizing the activities, estimating how much time/energy each will take, figuring out how many hours in a day the kid needs for each, understanding that ultimately there are only 24, managing time, monitoring the kid's performance, and making adjustments as necessary.

I agree with most of the rest you said, but where we diverge is in the prevention part. The way I see it, who cares if she overbooks herself at the beginning of the year? Worst case scenario is that she can't handle it and has to drop fencing after a month. If she drops it now, she can't win.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I agree with most of the rest you said, but where we diverge is in the prevention part. The way I see it, who cares if she overbooks herself at the beginning of the year? Worst case scenario is that she can't handle it and has to drop fencing after a month. If she drops it now, she can't win.

Or hell, maybe she can't handle it and she drops something else. Assuming you do go to college, hard high school classes are really only good for getting you in to elitist universities, and as we've heard from other people in this thread already, sometimes state schools can be just as good. No need to have it both ways.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by prototoast

Or hell, maybe she can't handle it and she drops something else.

Exactly! For example, last year I took two AP classes and a study hall, and I was pretty overworked, almost to the burnout point. This year, I have four AP classes and no study halls, but I took them anyway because I figured why not. And as it turns out, these classes are actually easier and I've wound up doing less total homework daily. You never know until you try it.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I agree with most of the rest you said, but where we diverge is in the prevention part. The way I see it, who cares if she overbooks herself at the beginning of the year? Worst case scenario is that she can't handle it and has to drop fencing after a month. If she drops it now, she can't win.

Fair enough. We agree to disagree. For the most part, my life philosophy revolves around preventing problems. (you know... an ounce of prevention vs. a pound of cure, etc.) That is not to say I never take risks - I do - but when I do take risks, I always have a "plan b", and usually a "plan c", and often a "plan d" in my back pocket.

Everyone has to make their own evaluation of how much risk they are willing to take on.

Note that the original question was how to "prevent burnout", not how to deal with it after it happens.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by parrythis

Fair enough. We agree to disagree. For the most part, my life philosophy revolves around preventing problems. (you know... an ounce of prevention vs. a pound of cure, etc.) That is not to say I never take risks - I do - but when I do take risks, I always have a "plan b", and usually a "plan c", and often a "plan d" in my back pocket.

Everyone has to make their own evaluation of how much risk they are willing to take on.

Note that the original question was how to "prevent burnout", not how to deal with it after it happens.

the problem with kids is that they will almost never learn something without being able to experience it. if you just TELL your child that they can't handle a specific schedule, then if you're wrong, they never get the opportunities. if you're right, they never really know that they couldn't have done it.


There is a difference between being "overwhelmed" and being "burnt out"----- the trick is to know that there's a potential for being overwhelmed, which may lead to burnout, and to step in during the overwhelmed. Even then, don't make decisions for your kid:


My parents have always been convinced I need to quit fencing. This may be because they have a long history of loving my friends that end up eventually becoming drug addicts and rapists, but openly decry all of my friends who are actually great people. That said, senior year of high school and first year of college, they knew I was overwhelmed, and thought that fencing was obviously the thing that needed to go. What they didn't understand was that fencing was the thing keeping me sane.

This semester, when I was fencing more than at any other point, and had more fencing responsibilities, my grades were the highest they've ever been at college.

[tkrivosh]

Been there, done that. Survived. Do not overanticipate problems, it is not as hard as it seems to you now. My son had 4 APs this year, plus an extra on-line math class, plus 4 times fencing (with a long commute), plus SATs, plus, plus, plus.... These kids are tough. As far as I could see he mostly played his computer games at home.

[tkrivosh]

Forgot to add: still loves fencing and is very very good at school.

[sleepyweasle]

thanks again everybody - quite honestly I am mostly concerned about her missing so much school - not because she can't deal with it but because at least this year her teachers seemed very unwilling to give her the work she was going to be missing ahead of time so she could do it on the plane, etc. Their attitude was "don't worry about it - you'll catch up when you get back." The problem with this approach is by the time she got back (often late the night before or early the morning of school) she had twice as much work to do, ended up missing sleep, fencing, etc. just to catch up, and often ended up having to miss more school from getting sick.

I intend to try and talk with her teachers next year and beg them to give her the work ahead of time - but is there anything else either she or I can do?

[Peach]

Anecdotal sidetrack: I am a teacher. Often, my students' parents ask me for the work "ahead of time." Although there is a syllabus, an outline of the year, and even a month-to-month plan, I use all my prep periods preparing the classes I teach, as I go. I create homework, adjust my schedule according to how much my students are learning and all the interruptions and cancellations that occur, and prepare quizzes and tests from week to week. This year, I had three students out for a choir trip and four for a lacrosse championships. Their parents, most courteously, requested the "work they were going to be missing" ahead of time. and it took me six hours of solid work to prepare and photocopy a packet for each of them. It wasn't made easier by the fact that the choir boys were going to be out several days longer than the lacrosse players so the packets had to be different. When they returned, of course, the ones who had actually done the work were still out of sync with the rest of the students, while the ones who hadn't done the work scrambled and caught up.

When my kid was competing nationally and had to miss school, she was frazzled, too. Junior year and the first half of senior year was a bit of a nightmare. My husband and I frequently glance at one another and thank heavens she has survived college and is off in grad school. She's still overdoing it (and playing rugby instead of fencing) but now it's not our problem.

[tkrivosh]

Totally agree with Peach (I am a college faculty), the reason teachers cannot give the assignments ahead of time is simply that these assignments do not exist at the given moment yet. Please do not do it to your daughter's teachers. I am serious. My son traveled to 6 national tournaments this season, often coming in on overnight flight and going straight to school, had 4 ap exams plus 1 final math test over the period of two weeks with two days of Sectionals in between (he fenced both days). Yes, it was tough, yes he had dark circles under his eyes, but hey, he got stronger.

[sleepyweasle]

The vast majority of the time she is only asking for the next day's assignment or the weekend homework. I would not ask for a weeks worth of work ahead of time but I find it difficult to believe that it would be too difficult to know what Friday's assignment is going to be if asked on Thursday.

I say this as most of the time she has returned to find out that the assignment she missed was to read a chapter(s) in her textbook, or part of an already-handed-out packet, and write an essay. Seems simple to "make up" but takes a few hours to complete. Throw those hours into the time she has to spend doing the current assignment... and so easy to have done while stuck in an airport and/or on a plane.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

the problem with kids is that they will almost never learn something without being able to experience it. if you just TELL your child that they can't handle a specific schedule, then if you're wrong, they never get the opportunities. if you're right, they never really know that they couldn't have done it.

I agree with you 100%. Experience (a.k.a. "the school of hard knocks") is the best teacher. We learn more from our failures than we do from our successes.

The trick, when raising kids and teaching them what they need to know to become adults, is to let them fail - and learn from their failures - at a manageable level and not just turn them loose and let them crash and burn. When they do fail, give them a way to make a soft landing, so they can recover and then go out and try again.

Parents are human. We make mistakes. But better to try to do the right thing than to do nothing at all.

This IS an interesting debate. I challenge anyone in this thread who has not raised kids to save their comments someplace safe - someplace they will find them in twenty years - then read them after they have raised kids through the teen years and see if they still hold to their opinions.

[big daddy]

Originally Posted by swordsen

"Though many people may disagree, it's healthy to have a life outside of fencing."

What!?!?! There is life outside fencing? Blasphemy!!!!!!

Here, Here, Dude!