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The48thRonin · 05-23-2006, 04:37 AM

I just watched the "Golden bouts" DVD and I was a bit disappointed. It was the first time that I have seen a professional bout and was surprised by the amount of extremely blatant "flicks" that I saw. I guess I thought that fencers at that level would be more crisp. Please tell me that the flick has not completely dominated the professional fencing world

eac · 05-23-2006, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The48thRonin

Please tell me that the flick has not completely dominated the professional fencing world

Why, exactly, would you like someone to tell you that?

LUDICROUS · 05-23-2006, 04:58 AM

AFAIK, it did dominate the world before the new timings set in, but I have no idea how it is now. Harder flicks

?

The48thRonin · 05-23-2006, 05:03 AM

Well dont get me wrong i dont wish to offend anyone. its just that the flick always seemed... i want to say unprofessional (However I'm realizing that i know very little of what is professional). I guess i was expecting something more refined.

The48thRonin · 05-23-2006, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUDICROUS

AFAIK, it did dominate the world before the new timings set in, but I have no idea how it is now. Harder flicks

?

AFAIK?

LUDICROUS · 05-23-2006, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The48thRonin

AFAIK?

As far as I know.

downunder · 05-23-2006, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The48thRonin

Well dont get me wrong i dont wish to offend anyone. its just that the flick always seemed... i want to say unprofessional (However I'm realizing that i know very little of what is professional). I guess i was expecting something more refined.

bear in mind these are the old timings.

what do you mean by more crisp? more refined?

Kat · 05-23-2006, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The48thRonin

I guess i was expecting something more refined.

If I understand what you mean by "refined" then I don't know how much closer you're going to get than Golubitsky; his technique was about as clean and crisp as pretty much anyone in recent times. It was certainly cleaner than many of his other contemporaries - compare these three WC matches to those of the Sydney or Athens Olympics, for example.

Also, there weren't really than many flicks in these bouts that you're talking about, especially compared to other "flickier" fencers. If you were expecting the fencing to look like a series of drills from a lesson then I can understand why you'd be disappointed but I guess that's just the modern game.

The48thRonin · 05-23-2006, 06:06 AM

you know how beautifully a well done parry riposte can be. thats what i mean. Elvis Gregori for example kept leading with the shoulder, upper arm at a 90 degree angle with the forearm and foil parallel to the shoulders and a slight downward angle with the tip pointing away from the opponent. His "thrust" was raising the upper arm swinging the forearm forward ending with snap of the wrist producing a extreme bow in the foil. With correct timing i can see it resulting in a touch. However it lacks control, and eventually it just slapping your opponent. This is an example of what i found disappointing.

The48thRonin · 05-23-2006, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kat

If I understand what you mean by "refined" then I don't know how much closer you're going to get than Golubitsky; his technique was about as clean and crisp as pretty much anyone in recent times. It was certainly cleaner than many of his other contemporaries - compare these three WC matches to those of the Sydney or Athens Olympics, for example.

It wasn't Golubitsky that i found dissapointing. In paticular it was Gregori.

LUDICROUS · 05-23-2006, 06:43 AM

I saw a video of that Zhang chap at the CIP, he did an all out lunge and had to put his hand down for balance(to stop himself from falling over sideways), is that proper technique

? People like Mr Epee, oiuyt and such like can inform you(and me too

) why top fencers fence like they do. A combination of "whatever-works-for-them" and that it's just getting the point on target that matters?

rudd · 05-23-2006, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUDICROUS

it's just getting the point on target that matters?

Guys it's not a drill or a demo it's a competition. Your quote sums it ups. Watch a martial arts movie or display and then watch a street fight or a UFC contest. It's not very "pretty."

That said Golubitsky gets some amazing moves in, beautifully timed PIL's, an amazing parry against Gregori. It's been a year since I watched the match but I remember being impressed.

Some people are never happy either is not real enough (rapier's at dawn) or it too real. Why not check out those videos from some "classical" salle that were posted. maybe their "crisp" enough

Redblade · 05-23-2006, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The48thRonin

... However it lacks control, and eventually it just slapping your opponent. This is an example of what i found disappointing.

You might be able to appreciate the action a little bit more if given the first-hand opportunity to experience it done well, and with the knowledge of how to respond.

A good flick requires timing, a finely tuned sense of distance and control. The response to a flick requires timing, a finely tuned sense of distance and control. The flickee must prompt the flicker to pop the action out of distance (too close or too far) or otherwise get that blade into manageable position for counter-time tactics, or prevent him from prepping the attack to begin with. Not an easy task, but doable.

A lot of fencers flick badly (and respond badly to good flicks). It can be sloppy and uncontrolled. But using it well requires refinement of those elements I mentioned earlier.

***Craig*** · 05-23-2006, 08:36 AM

[Description of Elvis Gregory's fencing style]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The48thRonin

However it lacks control, and eventually it just slapping your opponent. This is an example of what i found disappointing.

I watched Gregory and the other Cubans from that period and they have the control down. What may look uncontrolled to you is very controlled by them.

That said, Gregory was always a very dynamic fencer, even moreso when he went up against Golubitsky because that style tended to work for him against Sergei.

Craig

Mr Epee · 05-23-2006, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The48thRonin

It wasn't Golubitsky that i found dissapointing. In paticular it was Gregori.

Maybe if you send a letter to your congress person, he will begin work with the international community to have him stripped of his medals.

rory · 05-23-2006, 09:00 AM

Fencing is not just about placing a straight thrust on the chest of an opponent you've just dazzled with three disengages and a coupé.

International fencing is actually about control of distance, psychology and athleticism. The level of control needed to lank a flick on the shoulder of a rapidly advancing Olympian is far greater than you imagine.

It's difficult to appreciate the technical qualities of these fencers until you attain a reasonable level of competency in footwork, distance and timing.

You'll "get it" one day.

Until then, consider that the fencing you see in these videos is as closely related to classical rapier play as F1 racing is to distance running.

RITFencing · 05-23-2006, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The48thRonin

However it lacks control, and eventually it just slapping your opponent. This is an example of what i found disappointing.

Did it land repeatedly? I haven't seen the dvd, but I'm going to venture a guess at "yes." If I'm correct, then it did in fact have control. Actually, it requires more control than a straight thrust.

It's true that the flick is not classical swordplay or anything like it, but that does not mean that it's unrefined or lacks control.

Epee Scherma · 05-23-2006, 10:57 AM

RIT is right, a flick is not an uncontrolled unrefined action. It is very "professional". There is more technique to a flick than the simple thrust. I would make a comment about the timings and how the old-style of foil fencing was far cooler than newtimings, but I know that it's a dead horse...

edew · 05-23-2006, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The48thRonin

you know how beautifully a well done parry riposte can be. thats what i mean. Elvis Gregori for example kept leading with the shoulder, upper arm at a 90 degree angle with the forearm and foil parallel to the shoulders and a slight downward angle with the tip pointing away from the opponent. His "thrust" was raising the upper arm swinging the forearm forward ending with snap of the wrist producing a extreme bow in the foil. With correct timing i can see it resulting in a touch. However it lacks control, and eventually it just slapping your opponent. This is an example of what i found disappointing.

Yes, Elvis Gregory-Gil does advance with his blade pointing more towards the referee than to his opponent. That's called absence of blade movement. It is not always a prelude to a flick, although, given the position (and Elvis's penchant for flicking), usually end in a flick. He could just as well end in a thrust to the belly, a double-disengage, a second-intention counter-parry/riposte or any number of actions.

Purple Fencer · 05-23-2006, 12:36 PM

What....no props to Sergei for the classic parry 4/riposte to the chest against Young Ho Kim that won him his first world championship in '97?? (this, of course, after damn near LOSING it with an 8 touch lead and 2 mininutes to go in the final period)