liftin weights

[Mark Rippetoe]

Back in 1999, I contacted Michael Massik, executive director of USAF, about writing a position paper on strength and conditioning for fencing. Most other NGBs and international sport organizations have a variety of position statements about various topics related to their sport, i.e. training for children, recommended deitary guidelines, etc. USAF at the time did not have one regarding strength and conditioning, and Mr. Massik welcomed my offer. I produced the paper, and waited for the coaching committee members to review it and make suggestions/comments/recommendations. After approx. 3 months without a single reply to the review request, I withdrew the paper and submitted it to the National Strength and Conditioning Association for publication in the Strength and Conditioning Journal, in which it appeared in April 2000, V.22/2. If anyone is interested in it, I can make a copy available. torshammar@aol.com

Mark Rippetoe CSCS

[KD5MDK]

Out of curosity, and noticing your field and location, have you ever worked with Jan and Terry Todd at UT-Austin?

[dramamine]

Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe

Back in 1999, I contacted Michael Massik, executive director of USAF, about writing a position paper on strength and conditioning for fencing. Most other NGBs and international sport organizations have a variety of position statements about various topics related to their sport, i.e. training for children, recommended deitary guidelines, etc. USAF at the time did not have one regarding strength and conditioning, and Mr. Massik welcomed my offer. I produced the paper, and waited for the coaching committee members to review it and make suggestions/comments/recommendations. After approx. 3 months without a single reply to the review request, I withdrew the paper and submitted it to the National Strength and Conditioning Association for publication in the Strength and Conditioning Journal, in which it appeared in April 2000, V.22/2. If anyone is interested in it, I can make a copy available. torshammar@aol.com

Mark Rippetoe CSCS

This guy is the real deal, folks. This is an opportunity you probably don't want to miss.

[brutus]

hello mr rippetoe, would you be able to give us a quick sumary of what we should be doing for those of us who are either too cheap or poor (i.e. me) to purchase the book?

[rory]

Originally Posted by brutus

hello mr rippetoe, would you be able to give us a quick sumary of what we should be doing for those of us who are either too cheap or poor (i.e. me) to purchase the book?

I don't believe he's talking about his book here - this is a specific fencing related paper we're discussing. Try emailing the poor bloke, as he's asked above.

And the book is "Starting Strength" - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097...lance&n=283155
for those not too cheap to buy it ($28? It's hardly expensive...)

[brutus]

I wasn't talking about his book I was talking about the jounal (which assume must be purchased) and I thought that if he posted a little bit of advise it might clarify what we've all be debating on this thread.

But fine i'll just email hime and then. I was trying to be helpful but thats just lost on sompeople isn't it!!

P.s. I feel that people on this forum are very quick to infrom people that what they are doing is wrong when, in actual fact what that someone has posted has absolutely nothing to do with them. I generally try to avoid people like this in real life as they get all arsey when I tell them where to go!!

[rory]

Whatever.

I've contacted Mark, and he's been kind enough to email me a copy of the paper. It's excellent stuff, and since he emailed me a copy directly, I didn't have to buy a copy of the journal.
Had you paid attention to Mark's original posting, you would have realised this yourself.

If you don't want people to comment on what you have to say, there's a very simple solution - don't post it. And if you do insist on posting, do us all a favour and put some effort into your writing style so we can understand it a bit better. Your last post was pretty hard to read, and once I did, I felt cheated and wanted my 30 seconds back.

[brutus]

So have I and it is indeed and good read.

Good I'm glad you've lost a portion of your life, shame it was only 30 secs!!!!!!!!!

[rudd]

Originally Posted by brutus

So have I and it is indeed and good read.

Good I'm glad you've lost a portion of your life, shame it was only 30 secs!!!!!!!!!

I concur, excellent paper.

So after reading it are you considering making any changes to your bodybuilding program.

[brutus]

I have already started on my new routine (what with my first competition(after my season out) comin up).

I was always gonna change my routine nearer to the start of my season (although I've no way of proving it)

[Mark Rippetoe]

This is in response to many inquiries for a copy of the paper discussed in the thread above. This thread is rather stale now, but requests still trickle in from time to time. I have sent this article out no fewer than 25 times, always with the request to give me feedback and I have yet to receive any from anybody. Maybe someone could be so kind as to be the very first fencer to interact with me about this matter. I have been disappointed with the fencing community's lack of willingness to discuss the paper, from the time it was originally written for USAF in 1999 until now. Quite seriously, I have never received one comment regarding its content from one single fencer, and this puzzles me. Matters of courtesy aside, it would seem that there might be at least one fencer who has read the paper that disagreed with it that would be assertive enough to say so, or maybe even someone in agreement that could respond positively. But this has yet to occur.

By the way, this is still, to my knowledge, the only paper ever written on strength and conditioning for fencing, and was written as the position paper on the subject for USAF. Once again, the reason it was not adopted was that Mr. Massik, after 3 months of the paper being in the hands of all the members of the coaching committee, never received any comment on the paper despite repeated requests. I withdrew it and submitted it to the NSCA where it was published.


Mark Rippetoe CSCS

[darius]

Mark,

A few thoughts...

By the way, this is still, to my knowledge, the only paper ever written on strength and conditioning for fencing, and was written as the position paper on the subject for USAF.

US Fencing could be considered more of an administrative body. It doesn't actually devote much resources towards the actual training of fencers. Given the diversity of its coaching membership, it doesn't stick its hands into anything training-related, other than appointing national coaches, who come up with various criteria for how they want their weapon programs run. You might consider submitting your work to the US Fencing Coaches' Association (usfca.org); the editor of their newsletter reads here and is also a CSCS, I believe. Given that they actually are interested in the actual training of fencers, you might find that your paper is actually accepted as a position paper.

Everything you've written seems sound enough - there are differences in the way I run things, but as you've said, access to equipment is often the limiter there.

My athletes tend to do more unilateral work. Rather than full squats, we do split squats, and dumbbell bench presses. This way, we attempt to eliminate compensation, given that one side is often much stronger than the other. Do you feel otherwise?

I'm not entirely sure you've touched on abdominal strength very effectively. If you watch a lot of high level fencing, it's easy (but tactically dangerous) to extend a lunge by leaning; having the ability to drive into an explosive lunge but stay upright is important. Less important, it's also sometimes necessary to rotate the upper body, reversing the shoulders quickly. We do a lot of rotational work (wood choppers, medicine ball work) to improve core strength.

The benefits of the explosive lifts are obvious; I'm curious if there are lifts which you can use to improve explosive strength but have an easier learning curve. In my case, I feel comfortable teaching the squat. I would not feel comfortable teaching an Olympic lift. In lieu of this, we do a decent amount of sprinting, footwork-specific explosive work, or bodyweight explosive exercises (jump-squats, jump-lunges).

Thank you for your work on this, it's good stuff, but I suspect some people are reading it and thinking, "core lifts, olympic lifts, and grip training. Is that it?" Much of the paper exists to justify the resistance training exercises, which is probably necessary; there are still coaches who think that weight training is bad for fencers. If I were editing, I'd be asking about energy system and flexibility work specific to fencing. The strength stuff is great, how about conditioning?

darius

[darius]

Mark had some problems posting this, so he sent it to me. Good stuff; hopefully it'll generate some more dialogue.

darius
------------

Originally Posted by darius

Given that they actually are interested in the actual training of fencers, you might find that your paper is actually accepted as a position paper.

I withdrew the paper from consideration several years ago, and at this point I am not interested in resubmitting it. The information is available for people who are interested, and that was the important thing anyway, not the stamp of approval by an NGB.

Originally Posted by darius

My athletes tend to do more unilateral work. Rather than full squats, we do split squats, and dumbbell bench presses. This way, we attempt to eliminate compensation, given that one side is often much stronger than the other. Do you feel otherwise?

This question was actually raised in response to the article when it ran in the Strength and Conditioning Journal. I pointed out that relative to symmetrical heavy absolute strength work like squats, presses, and deadlifts, the work received from asymmetrical fencing-specific movements is insignificant and cannot produce an imbalance, if the heavier training is being done. Olympic weightlifting incorporates quite a bit more asymmetrical loading than fencing, but in the context of heavy squats and pulls it also produces no problems with asymmetric development. The only way one side would ever be stronger than the other is if unilateral work was all that was being done, and this alone makes the case for a barbell-based strength program for fencers.

Originally Posted by darius

I'm not entirely sure you've touched on abdominal strength very effectively. If you watch a lot of high level fencing, it's easy (but tactically dangerous) to extend a lunge by leaning; having the ability to drive into an explosive lunge but stay upright is important. Less important, it's also sometimes necessary to rotate the upper body, reversing the shoulders quickly. We do a lot of rotational work (wood choppers, medicine ball work) to improve core strength.

Core strength is so effectively produced by the barbell exercises that I don't recommend a lot of time be spent on abs. Heavy presses in particular are a much better functional core strength exercise than the movements you mention. Core strength is more specific to stability than it is to active rotation.

Originally Posted by darius

The benefits of the explosive lifts are obvious; I'm curious if there are lifts which you can use to improve explosive strength but have an easier learning curve. In my case, I feel comfortable teaching the squat. I would not feel comfortable teaching an Olympic lift. In lieu of this, we do a decent amount of sprinting, footwork-specific explosive work, or bodyweight explosive exercises (jump-squats, jump-lunges).

You're right to feel uncomfortable teaching an Olympic lift. I would feel uncomfortable teaching saber. They are technical movements, and that is why I advocate obtaining expert coaching for both. But the power clean can easily be learned by anyone with a modicum of athletic ability, and it cannot be done without explosion. It works well in the program in lieu of more complicated snatches and clean&jerks, and allows more quantifiable progress to be made than bodyweight-type explosive exercises do.

Originally Posted by darius

Thank you for your work on this, it's good stuff, but I suspect some people are reading it and thinking, "core lifts, olympic lifts, and grip training. Is that it?" Much of the paper exists to justify the resistance training exercises, which is probably necessary; there are still coaches who think that weight training is bad for fencers. If I were editing, I'd be asking about energy system and flexibility work specific to fencing. The strength stuff is great, how about conditioning?

There are still boxing coaches that think "roadwork", i.e. long slow distance, has something to do with 3-minute boxing rounds, so dull folks are everywhere. People who have never done barbell training do not understand the huge conditioning component inherent in the work. If after this has been adequately explored still more conditioning for higher-level competitors is desired and fencing practice is not providing it, CrossFit is the best GPP program available for this purpose. CrossFit, in my opinion, is perfect for fencers.

Mark Rippetoe

[qatet]

Mark, I was one of the people who asked for your article and then never responded. I was underwhelmed by the article, in large part because it was, as Darius says, mostly trying to convince people that they need strength training in addition to their other training.

Your recent post (through Darius) is vastly more useful. I know very few fencers who don't lift. Personally, if I don't lift I get bad joint problems, so I'm likely to keep lifting even at the times when the rest of life gets between me and fencing. But having educated and supported information about what types of lifts to do and when (and why!) is great. We've got plenty of people on this board who lift, but the discussions about lifting all end up being a matter of opinion whose kung fu is better. (Mine!! Mine is better!!!)

While the NGB may not be very pro-active in getting this kind of information out to fencers (perhaps they argue about whose kung fu is better, too), posting here could be a great platform for you and a great resource for us. Craig recently established a series of articles on sport psychology. I wonder if you could work together to do the same? The number of threads on the subject indicate that there's clearly an interest in the topic.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Originally Posted by qatet

Mark, I was one of the people who asked for your article and then never responded. I was underwhelmed by the article, in large part because it was, as Darius says, mostly trying to convince people that they need strength training in addition to their other training.

Your recent post (through Darius) is vastly more useful.

Note that Darius got a clarification and the board got "useful" information because of his response. THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS I ASKED FOR FEEDBACK. That, and the courtesy that should always be extended when someone takes the time to fill your request.

You're right about the kung fu pissing contest. It is difficult for people inexperienced with weight training to know who's opinion is valuable. Most of the people on this board who train with weights are relying on their own opinions about what to do. I invite you to examine my credentials. My information is available at amazon.com and on my website, and I hope it can be of some help.

Mark Rippetoe

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I'm not a pro like Mark (though I'm working on becoming ISSA Certified).

My current view of weight training for fencing (and it changes from time to time) is that while it can increase performance, it should mainly be used as a prehabilitation method (keeping your shoulders, wrists, knees and back functional).

A competitive fencer is likely fencing 4-5 days a week, plus tournaments on weekends, so IMO, a strenous weight training and plyometrics program is detrimental to a fencers performance and improvement. Use it to correct and prevent imbalances, so that the fencer can continue to practice the skill elements of the sport without injury.

I don't think that competitive fencers should even include plyometrics in their non-fencing training. There are enough plyometric movements in the course of day to day training (lunges, balestras, fleches, jumping, ect) as it is. There are not enough knees.

The place where I think most serious fencers could use a little help is with intra and post training nutrition. I've found that supplementing with BCAA's during training is one of the best ways to reduce the damage of a training session. A solution of carbohydrates and proteins after training works well for me.

[qatet]

Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe

Note that Darius got a clarification and the board got "useful" information because of his response. THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS I ASKED FOR FEEDBACK. That, and the courtesy that should always be extended when someone takes the time to fill your request.

Oh dear, did I write poorly? I might have, I'm well beyond exhausted. Yes, I suppose that "underwhelmed" is a rather loaded word. It wasn't meant that way. What I meant was that I didn't respond because I felt that there wasn't much for _me_ to respond to. I already know that I should lift, which was the first 80% of your article, but I don't know enough about lifting to critique the last 20%. Most of what I know about choosing exercises is from my coach/boss (and his kung fu).

I now do have feedback and have given it, but I could imagine that many of the people who asked for your article already believe in the value of lifting and were similarly surprised to find that so much of it was a well-reasoned but somewhat basic statement of why fencers should lift.

[brutus]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

I'm not a pro like Mark (though I'm working on becoming ISSA Certified).

My current view of weight training for fencing (and it changes from time to time) is that while it can increase performance, it should mainly be used as a prehabilitation method (keeping your shoulders, wrists, knees and back functional).

A competitive fencer is likely fencing 4-5 days a week, plus tournaments on weekends, so IMO, a strenous weight training and plyometrics program is detrimental to a fencers performance and improvement. Use it to correct and prevent imbalances, so that the fencer can continue to practice the skill elements of the sport without injury.

I don't think that competitive fencers should even include plyometrics in their non-fencing training. There are enough plyometric movements in the course of day to day training (lunges, balestras, fleches, jumping, ect) as it is. There are not enough knees.

The place where I think most serious fencers could use a little help is with intra and post training nutrition. I've found that supplementing with BCAA's during training is one of the best ways to reduce the damage of a training session. A solution of carbohydrates and proteins after training works well for me.

I kinda agree and kinda don't. I agree that plyo stuff is not really required for fencers as, like you said they get alot of it already from their fencing training.
I think that weight training alot is fine ontop of regular fencing training, I personally use the tapering period before a comp to give my body a bit of a rest with SMR and loads of light recovery sessions.
Def have to agree about the BCAA's, although I tend to go with a mix of bcaa's and dextrose powder in some squash during, 3-4 bannanas before and a protein shake followed by dinner after.

[rudd]

Hi Mark. I was another one of those who requested the paper. I did have a brief e-mail exchange with you where you provided some useful clarifications. I'm currently following a S&C program based around the lifts in the paper and using skipping, sprints and the Crossfit WOD for additional conditioning.

Over the years I've received a little coaching on the Olympic lifts so can do an alright power clean and a barely passable clean or snatch. I'm lifting twice a week. I do a fast pull followed by a squat and a pressing movement. I then usually do pullups and a single leg movement. The fast pulls are done for sets of 5 reps the other lifts for higher reps.


While I agree there is asymmetric loading in the lifts especially the jerk, fencing is very sided to the point that the trailing arm is hardly used and the muscles of each leg are utilised in very different fashion. Because of this I agree with Darius and do some one legged work for balance and prehab.

I would also agree that there is limited need for additional abdominal work. I do some situp variant or back extension as part of my warmup. My wife is a pilates instructor so I do one of her classes once every two weeks or so and that cover any core deficiencies I may have. From the studies I've seen and from my own experience heavy squatting and deadlifting will work the deep abdominal, multifidus etc hard.

To save time I do sprints after my lifting session or occasionally on an off day. I do the Crossfit WOD os a Saturday if I've no competition or twice a week if I have limited fencing that week. I fence three times a week and do footwork on two additional days.

I agree with D+F+P=Hadouken that prehab and injury prevention is key, but I do feel heavy lifting and sensible plyometrics have a place ( conservative box jump, vertical jumps etc rather than depth jumps). I also feel most of the lifting should target the hips and legs. I wouldn't do any upper body plyos.

I also think that fencers should emphasize full body flexibility work. Very important both to improve performance and reduce the risk