liftin weights

[RebelFencer]

I encourage you to take a gander at this:

http://www.rapturealert.com/howtoacceptjesus.html

[Epee Scherma]

That was an excellent relevant link RF, DFP you should pay attention to that information. It clearly proves you need to revise your cross trainign schedule. Jesus loves us!

[brutus]

Originally Posted by dramamine

I appreciate your effort and I think that the program you outlined would be ok for some people who are not athletes but it really does not look very good at all for a fencer. It is a classic split bodybuilding routine, and the top athletes in any sport simply do not train like this. There is no need for isolation exercises in an athlete's program except for maybe rear delt work for injury prevention. Similarly I do not know of many top level athletes (of course there are exceptions) who advocate training to failure, especially in season. It is arguably a good way to gain size but generally excepted as a poor way to improve strength and neural adaptation. To boot I don't see how a competitive fencer could follow such a program while keeping up their cardio, sprints/plyometrics and training. I mean most competitive fencers train between 3-7 times a week, to expect them to train to failure four times a week in addition to this is just asking for decreased performance.

Anyway just my opinion, I don't pretend to know everything but I think if you google Charlie Francis or visit the forums on athletes.com you will start to agree with me.

Afraid to say that no i wont agree with you. I did indeed borrow the split idea form bodybuilding routines and training methodology however I have been using it to aid recovery of the working muscle groups (I have tied my routine into my club training regulated my split so that the various areas that I found to be fatigued during club nights are worked with sufficient recovery time for that muscle groups - in my experience).

About the in-season bit, I have already staded the cicumstances that I use this program in. e.i. the season that I am using this in is not what I would term a 'real season' it's more of a training season for me to enable me to 'raise my game'.

This program has been created using my personal experience and I posted it as an example program as for the origonal poster to get an idea of what I thought would be a good training program.

I find that this level of training is completely acceptable to me. I find that I am able to recover very quickly from the workouts (going to failure), I consume a large amount of cals during this program 3500 and upwards, mainly protein, carbs and little fat (except for good fats) and lots of liquid and rest. I leave about 2-3 days prior to the weekend of a competition to carb load and rest up.

Since using this program I have noticed a massive increase in the speed, power and successfulness of my explosive moves (flech, lunge, etc) also my flick hit ratio of hit/misses has increased and I am able to dominate and control the piste much more effectlively.

When it comes down to it what I have done is to listen to everything that the caoches had to say, read the relevant info on training priciples, read the relevant info on the muscle types and energy systems (did an A level in sport sience), looked on all the training websites. And then thought right I know all this and yet can't get the results I want on or off the piste.
So I started not listening to the 'experts' to much. Still pass a glance at their research and stuff, but I do wot I have found works, from experience and experiomenting.

Hope that helps understand whats goin on in my crazy head lol.

Again soz if offended anyone with my earlier outbusrst.

cheers.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Quoted from an article on bodybuilding.com (which despite the namesake, isnt just bodybuilding, but covers strength training of many different sorts)
.

For the record, it's from a site called TEENbodybuilding.com and was written by this well recognized expert - let's give credit where credit is due...

and so far your source material is a wikipedia and a commercial site dedicated to supplement sales... maybe next you can cite one of those Windsor Pilates infomercials.

On a more serious note, you are mismatching several ideas. And while it's possible, I seriously doubt that you have actually read SuperTraining buy Dr Siff (500 pretty hardcore pages), so referencing his lift chart is on the same level of someone explaining/citing the Atkins diet based on what they saw on Oprah.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

http://www.freedomfly.net/Articles/T...training29.htm

Theres one for ya

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Oh what do you know?

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=208

[Mr Epee]

Um... I'm sure your adrenaline is pumping pretty good now, but before you bust out a "Boo-ya" - here's a few VERY important things to remember.

1. Regardless of your position you can invariably find a "fitness expert" to validate it.

2. Appropriate training models vary widely from person to person.

3. The high-weight + low-rep formula you are advocating is an extremely dangerous formula that requires many years of training to even begin to perform properly.

4. When you post source materials please look hard enough to find sources that are not written by 15 year olds, act as filler for supplement companies, or freeze my computer due to the number of pop-ups.

5. Actually read your source material... it tends to lend credibility.

6. Recognize that strength training for sports is very different from other forms of strength training. Strength training for sport is usually most beneficial when it focuses on multi-joint exercises. These type of exercises DO NOT lend themselves to the low-rep model. The risk for injury (a bad thing) increases exponentially.

7. There is more than one method for developing motor units.

8. I'm still waiting for your defense of the statement I questioned earlier...

[xlr8]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Theres also a reason they're called olympic lifts: because alot of olympians do them.

Actually the reason why they are called the "Olympic lifts" is because they are the lifts one does in the Olympic sport of weightlifting :-)

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Um... I'm sure your adrenaline is pumping pretty good now, but before you bust out a "Boo-ya" - here's a few VERY important things to remember.

1. Regardless of your position you can invariably find a "fitness expert" to validate it.

2. Appropriate training models vary widely from person to person.

3. The high-weight + low-rep formula you are advocating is an extremely dangerous formula that requires many years of training to even begin to perform properly.

4. When you post source materials please look hard enough to find sources that are not written by 15 year olds, act as filler for supplement companies, or freeze my computer due to the number of pop-ups.

5. Actually read your source material... it tends to lend credibility.

6. Recognize that strength training for sports is very different from other forms of strength training. Strength training for sport is usually most beneficial when it focuses on multi-joint exercises. These type of exercises DO NOT lend themselves to the low-rep model. The risk for injury (a bad thing) increases exponentially.

7. There is more than one method for developing motor units.

8. I'm still waiting for your defense of the statement I questioned earlier...

7. Motor units are recruited, not developed. But you're right, there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.

8. The neurological changes resulting from plyometric training are that of altered motor unit recruitment, better feel for the stretching and shortening cycle and increased motor unit/nervous system discharging strength. I also could be wrong.

[dramamine]

Originally Posted by xlr8

Actually the reason why they are called the "Olympic lifts" is because they are the lifts one does in the Olympic sport of weightlifting :-)

lol, ya, they are not called olympic lifts cause olympians do them. haha.

this is from www.defrancostraining.com on the use of olympic lifts for athlete development. interesting perspective. from an article called top 10 training myths. also you should note that myth #10 is "preacher curls work the lower bicep" which is very similar to brutus' claim that cable flyes are working the "inner pecs". it is certainly possible to work the upper chest with incline presses because it is actually hitting a different muscle group, but there is no such thing as "inner chest".

Myth #4: Olympic lifts are the only way to get explosive.

Most people say they perform the Olympic lifts because they're "explosive." The truth of the matter is that any lift can be explosive! By incorporating the dynamic-effort method with sub-maximal weights into your program, you can turn any lift into an "explosive" lift.

For example, if a man who can box squat 500 pounds were to train with 275 and focus on accelerating the weight, the box squat would then become an "explosive" lift. This example can hold true for many other exercises as well. By training with weights that represent 50-60% of your 1RM in a given lift, science has proven that the weight is heavy enough to produce adequate force, yet light enough to produce adequate speed. And we should all know that speed times strength = power.

Another reason I feel the Olympic lifts are overrated is that they take a long time to teach and most athletes are horrible at them. After all, Olympic lifting is a sport in and of itself! Olympic weightlifters spend their entire lives practicing these lifts and some of these athletes still never perfect them!

The reason that most non-Olympic weightlifters aren’t great at the Olympic lifts is usually because they aren’t strong enough in the right places. After assessing an athlete’s power clean or power snatch form, I usually conclude that their technique flaws are due to a lack of hamstring, glute and low back strength. This assessment usually means that I end up prescribing more deadlift variations, reverse hyperextensions, glute-ham raises, pull-throughs, etc.

This is called the training economy. Getting stronger in the deadlift, reverse hyperextension and glute-ham raise will improve your power clean, but it doesn’t work the other way around. Basically, I choose the exercises that give my athletes the best "bang for their buck." Another benefit of my "economical" exercises is that they're much less stressful on the wrists, elbows and shoulders compared to the Olympic lifts.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by dramamine

Another reason I feel the Olympic lifts are overrated is that they take a long time to teach and most athletes are horrible at them. After all, Olympic lifting is a sport in and of itself! Olympic weightlifters spend their entire lives practicing these lifts and some of these athletes still never perfect them!

The reason that most non-Olympic weightlifters aren’t great at the Olympic lifts is usually because they aren’t strong enough in the right places.

BRAVO... absolutely correct.

I happen to have very good form for squats, but it took a very long time to develop the technique... and many months of low-weight sets with a specific focus on form. Yes, sometimes just the bar - go ahead laugh I don't care. :-)

Even with strong technique I discovered that my lower body capacity to lift (in terms of max) was significantly larger than my upper body capacity to support. I'd imagine that this is fairly common for fencers.

[dramamine]

Originally Posted by brutus

Afraid to say that no i wont agree with you. I did indeed borrow the split idea form bodybuilding routines and training methodology however I have been using it to aid recovery of the working muscle groups (I have tied my routine into my club training regulated my split so that the various areas that I found to be fatigued during club nights are worked with sufficient recovery time for that muscle groups - in my experience).

About the in-season bit, I have already staded the cicumstances that I use this program in. e.i. the season that I am using this in is not what I would term a 'real season' it's more of a training season for me to enable me to 'raise my game'.

This program has been created using my personal experience and I posted it as an example program as for the origonal poster to get an idea of what I thought would be a good training program.

I find that this level of training is completely acceptable to me. I find that I am able to recover very quickly from the workouts (going to failure), I consume a large amount of cals during this program 3500 and upwards, mainly protein, carbs and little fat (except for good fats) and lots of liquid and rest. I leave about 2-3 days prior to the weekend of a competition to carb load and rest up.

Since using this program I have noticed a massive increase in the speed, power and successfulness of my explosive moves (flech, lunge, etc) also my flick hit ratio of hit/misses has increased and I am able to dominate and control the piste much more effectlively.

When it comes down to it what I have done is to listen to everything that the caoches had to say, read the relevant info on training priciples, read the relevant info on the muscle types and energy systems (did an A level in sport sience), looked on all the training websites. And then thought right I know all this and yet can't get the results I want on or off the piste.
So I started not listening to the 'experts' to much. Still pass a glance at their research and stuff, but I do wot I have found works, from experience and experiomenting.

Hope that helps understand whats goin on in my crazy head lol.

Again soz if offended anyone with my earlier outbusrst.

cheers.

right, if it works for you do it. but if you are really serious about your performance in fencing (more than weight lifting) you will have to start doing what the top athletes are doing (sorry, it's not cable flyes) just kidding, but i had to say it. as long as it works for your goals go for it though

i used to be way more into weight lifting than i am now, i was on a routine kind of like yours but with less volume. sure i was improving but i can tell you that once i changed to a more focused and sport specific routine i made major improvements in my fencing.

now i just do fullbody twice a week, squats, lunges, deadlifts, dumbell presses, push presses, weighted dips/chinups, rows and tons of core work. my performance on the piste is better and more consistent and i am still making gains in the gym (don't want to be one of your internet gym junkies who says they can bench 3x their weight or anything but lets just say im doing well).

in conclusion, for what it's worth everyone should listen to mr epee

lol

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

BRAVO... absolutely correct.

I happen to have very good form for squats, but it took a very long time to develop the technique... and many months of low-weight sets with a specific focus on form. Yes, sometimes just the bar - go ahead laugh I don't care. :-)

Even with strong technique I discovered that my lower body capacity to lift (in terms of max) was significantly larger than my upper body capacity to support. I'd imagine that this is fairly common for fencers.

just out of curiosity, mr. E, what type of cross training do you advocate for fencing? (not that i'm taking sides in the debate, just curious about your opinion).

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by glowstix

just out of curiosity, mr. E, what type of cross training do you advocate for fencing? (not that i'm taking sides in the debate, just curious about your opinion).

Sorry, I didn't realize there was a debate...

Here's a complete list of activities that I have done as cross-training for fencing.

1. Swimming
2. Weight Training
3. Soccer - recreational
4. Cycling
5. Running

I don't know that I would recommend cycling, because I was doing it for a job (bike messenger) and I felt that it made me really tired and slow... and in additional to work I was popping off centuries pretty regularly on the weekends.

My favorites are Weights (intelligently) and Swimming.

Both of which are sports in their own right and take a long long time to develop the skill necessary to utilize as effective training techniques... even for a talented athlete.

Hungarians are big fans of swimming, and for good reason. It's low impact, and symmetric.

[brutus]

Originally Posted by dramamine

it is certainly possible to work the upper chest with incline presses because it is actually hitting a different muscle group, but there is no such thing as "inner chest".

Stop just accepting what you are told or what you read and get some real gym experience. i.e. Find out what actually hapens when you do stuf to your body in different ways.

I you venture over to the cable station and grab those handles, start doing flys/squeezes, the next day tell me where it hurts: The 'outer' part of the pec i.e. the bit closest to your arms/shoulders (part of the upper pecs) and Funny enough it will be sore right up close to your sternum - the 'inner' pec. But yes in terms of the heads of the pec there is only and upper and a lower.

And by the way you're right, preacher curls don't work any part of the bicep more than the other. But your kinda wrong about the upper and lower bicep bit 'cos the bicep is made up of 2 heads the long (so could be contsrude as the lower) and the short (could be called the upper) heads.

I hate full body workouts, you can't get any intensity into your workouts and if you manage to work hard enough your whole body will be recovering and repairing all at once (bit of a strain on the NS I feel).

Just outta interest dramamine what do you fence and what would you say your style is in that weapon?

[Inquartata]

I think lifting is useful and I do it, but...some of you guys would probably get more benefit from devoting more time and attention to learning and practicing fencing than achieving such levels of esoteric knowledge about weightlifting.

I mean, the fine points of the reaction of particular parts of the pectoral muscles to stress?!

[brutus]

LOL,I see what you mean but this thread is about the training that should be undertaken for fencing. The detail I went into was required to illustrate a point.

Beleive me I do skills training; 1 night - Technical lesson, 2x2hr club nights, Training courses, Lunge pad work at home, etc.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

I don't know that I would recommend cycling, because I was doing it for a job (bike messenger) and I felt that it made me really tired and slow... and in additional to work I was popping off centuries pretty regularly on the weekends.

My favorites are Weights (intelligently) and Swimming.

i've actually done cycling and weights..i'm not completely sold on the weights though. the hard part is figuring out the RIGHT routine that will benefit fencing..i've also done cycling..good for cardio, nothing else fencing related.

what i've done is turn my footwork routine into a cardio session.