Rules About Disadvantages Created by Sun-Blindness?

[sjpfencer220]

This is not a common problem at all but it occured as I was fencing in the semi-finals of y14 women's epee at the NYC super RYC. As the tournament was at the armoury, there were huge window spanning across the top of every wall, allowing a lot of sun to get in when it was in the right position. During my bout, I was on the side facing the sun and was completely not able to see my opponent, giving her a large advantage. Although she did not hit me that ofter, she did flesche often, and as I could not see he from the sun, I could not hit her. Eventually, I asked the ref if there was anything that we could do, possibly to move the strip, and she came up with the solution that at the end of the first period we would switch sides. We did, and as I consistently hit her about on pace to finish that bout in thirty seconds, she eventually complained. Being the nice person that I was ( ) I allowed us to move strips (the refs new solution) before the end of the period. We fenced the rest of the bout on another strip (me eventually the victor ) however it did seem slightly unofficial as no one knew the exact rules regarding this problem, and everyone had different ideas and opinions. I am not sure if this question has an answer, however I was wondering if there are any rules as to how to treat the situation is the sun is so strong it makes it impossible to hit only for one fencer and also if this has happened to anyone beforre how they (and their ref) handled it.

PS I won that competition

[Schiavona]

In the old AFLA (pre-USFA) rules covering non-electric fencing, fencers fencing outside changed sides after 3 touches. I believe this was in a 5 touche bout.

The event organizers should have considered this problem. Moving to a shaded strip was the best solution during this event. Switching sides a poor second.

[KD5MDK]

I was under the impression that there was a provision that the sun should give an advantage to neither fencer. There used to be a rule that fencers switched sides after every point, though that might have been in Outdoor fencing only.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

In the old AFLA (pre-USFA) rules covering non-electric fencing, fencers fencing outside changed sides after 3 touches. I believe this was in a 5 touche bout.

The event organizers should have considered this problem. Moving to a shaded strip was the best solution during this event. Switching sides a poor second.

I had this same problem while fencing a tournament earlier this season. The referee had us switch sides when one fencer made it to 8 touches. On that strip there was really only a portion of the strip that was affected (for one fencer). That is, there was only about a meter or two where the fencer on the referee's left would have the sun shining in his face. Largely, it could be managed by the fencer by minimizing the amount of time spent in that zone of the strip. Switching sides half-way through the DE seemed appropriate in that case. Neither me nor my opponent complained about the situation or the solution.

[Zilverzmurfen]

The rules are covered in Technical Rules, Chapter 3 T11.

There has been ocassions where I've had the same misfortune as you did. Especially since I'm a leftie and sometimes forced to intake one side of the piste.

Of course, the ideal is to change piste if possible.
As stated both fencers have the right to the same circumstances for the bout, but if it's not practically possible it's a real dilemma for the ref, sitting tight between bout 'scheme' and the competitors right...

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

The rules are covered in Technical Rules, Chapter 3 T11.

There has been ocassions where I've had the same misfortune as you did. Especially since I'm a leftie and sometimes forced to intake one side of the piste.

Of course, the ideal is to change piste if possible.
As stated both fencers have the right to the same circumstances for the bout, but if it's not practically possible it's a real dilemma for the ref, sitting tight between bout 'scheme' and the competitors right...

Thanks. Of course, the piste is supposed to be a full 14 meters. And the scoring box is supposed to be 1 meter from the piste. And there shouldn't be any columns that permit you to cover target.

It's interesting that the rule is supposed to be that neither fencer has an advantage. If there aren't enough strips to change strips, and the window is to high or large to cover it, then I guess the bout committee should assign someone to shine a big light in the other fencer's face.

[rac]

My daughter was in this situation in her most recent local tourney. She is a lefty and requested that they change strips but the director refused told her to fence around the problem. The problem with that is the other fencer retreated to the place where he was shielded by the sun then would attack with her not being unable to counter things went bad quickly.

I think personally she should have protested but it was only a local tourney. Sadly she lost.

RAC

[Mr Epee]

With regard to ground of this nature, be before the enemy in occupying the raised and sunny spots, and carefully guard your line of supplies. Then you will be able to fight with advantage.

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

With regard to ground of this nature, be before the enemy in occupying the raised and sunny spots, and carefully guard your line of supplies. Then you will be able to fight with advantage.

That from the art of war by Ei Pei?

[Poulet]

Originally Posted by RoninX

That from the art of war by Ei Pei?

If Ei Pei has replaced Sun Tzu, yes.

[hpfencing]

I say balck card the sun and move on

We have them switch sides at 3 touches for pool bouts, and then switch at each break during DE's.

if possible we simply bring an extention ladder, climb up and attach sheets to the windows. Which seems to fix a lot of the problems.

Just a few ideas!

[mrbiggs]

t.11 The field of play should have an even surface. It should give neither
advantage nor disadvantage to either of the two fencers concerned,
especially as regards light.

That's pretty clear. The correct response from the referee was "OK, let's change strips."

Also, it's not a good quick fix, but tape on the mask can be used to sheild your eyes from the sun. (Except not on the outside in sabre, obviously.)

[HDG]

Originally Posted by rac

My daughter was in this situation in her most recent local tourney. She is a lefty and requested that they change strips but the director refused told her to fence around the problem. The problem with that is the other fencer retreated to the place where he was shielded by the sun then would attack with her not being unable to counter things went bad quickly.

I think personally she should have protested but it was only a local tourney. Sadly she lost.

RAC

If this was D3 Foil at the West Coast Duel; I was the opponent. I did offer the ref to switch at the end of the first period. I've been questioning how sportsmanlike it was to take advantage of the setting sun (as no doubt you were doing at the time), but for what it's worth, I got knocked out in the round of 4 -- in exactly your daughter's situation on that same strip. I don't recall if you all stuck around, and it's probably little consolation, but I got my comeuppance when my opponent played exactly the tactic I had.

[Inquartata]

I notice that the rule says "should", not "must". This leaves a good deal of latitude to plead unavoidability.

The problem has made itself felt for the last two years at one tournament I attend in Southern California. The way the strips are laid out, most of them suffer from the sun slanting in across them, which disadvantages one fencer. All strips are usually in use for most of the day, so switching is not an option.

I can recommend sunglasses.

[rory]

Put a stripe of tape on your mask as a sun visor.
In sabre it'll need to be on the inside, foil and epee, outside will do.

[sjpfencer220]

First off, thanks for all your suggestions. For anyone who has seen the windows in the armoury, they stretch across the top of the entire room, a good 20 ft. about the balcony, so I think it would be slightly difficult to ocover them . To sympathize with rac's daughter, I am a lefty too. I'm pretty sure if it had been foil where covering was a problem, we would have switched strips, but as covering was not a problem in Epee, we didn't (okay, not exactly sympathizing...)

[sleepyweasle]

Jan 2006 Montreal WS Junior world cup - semifinal bout - Daga Wozniak vs. Caroline Vloka. Daga had the sun in her eyes for the entire 1st half of the bout and fell way behind. At the break she asked the director if they could change strips which he allowed. Daga went on to win the bout and, eventually, the tournament.

Don't hesitate to ask to change strips - the worst that can happen is that the director says no.

[Go? Fencing?]

At a high school in my area, the gym is also prey to the sun coming in. Unfortunately for sportsmanship, this team has been known to train to use the sun to their unfair advantage. In situations like this, the best thing to do (if unable to switch strips or sides) is to simply stay away from that end of the strip... then complain to teammates afterwards.

[cs3dswb]

Dont complain...charge.

if the sun is in your eyes wait for the blur infront of you to notice and then chargggeee!!!!

Or in sabre FLUNGE!

[druidfoil11]

for those interested, there is a question about this situation on the 'general' section of the FOC referree exam. Basically it asks what the correct protocal is for when a fencer asks if they may be allowed to use a piece of tape as a sun visor. the correct answer is that the referee should consult the technical expert, or head armoror who will generally approve the request, and then bouting will continue.
since the exam is made up of a number of randomly selected questions from a large pool, there are no guarentees that this question will be on yours, but its worth knowing ...i wish i had read a post like this...