Broken Blade Etiquette?

[RoninX]

Now if I'm walking arond a salle and step on someone's equipment and break it I will replace it.

But what about if you are fencing a friend and flesch into them, lose your balance and cause a corps-a-corps and their blade is caught between you and it breaks. Do you replace it? Do you do this if they are not a friend?

Or on the other hand is it part and parcel of fencing? Everyone is risking their blade when they are bouting right?

Also many of us can rewire new blades with relative ease and can just buy blades, but for some they would either have to learn how to wire and repair or buy a whole new weapon. Does whose blade you break matter in this respect?

I'm interested in people thoughts.

*Note: this is hypothetical, I'm not looking for advice on a specific issue I'm having with someone.

[remise]

My kids and I used to loan our weapons out to fencers whose weapons 'died' in the middle of a competition. Not anymore.

After getting our equipment back in pieces, we modified our policy. Not that we were expecting the fencers who broke the blades to actually replace them, but they didn't even offer. (I might add that I am referring to two fencers who have become notorious for borrowing and breaking).

[Knarlinator]

Once, I fenced a guy in my club, really tall with glasses and a carefree attitude. He was missing a couple of screws, so he borrowed a blade from a friend and we started fencing. Halfway through the bout, the sword snapped in half. Whose fault was it? Who should pay for the damage? No one really cared. It was a big laugh and other fencers would make comments on how important it is to order better blades. The person whose blade got snapped in half shrugged it off as an accident. Had he made a fuss, I feel that the cost should have been split. The person I fenced is responsible for the over aggressive action, and I'm responsible for wearing a stiff chest protector. I guess if you step on soneone's sword just walk away quietly and no one will notice.

[seak]

If my blade breaks (providing I'm the one fencing with it at the time), I will fix it or pay someone else to, regardless of whose fault it was, and I wouldn't expect to do anything else, if you break your blade on me though I'm not going to feel responsible for it.

The weapons break, its just part of the sport. If I am using someone else's blade and I break it I would offer to pay for it. My club occasionally loans out blades to members of other clubs, sometimes those blades break. People almost always offer to pay for it, and we just ask them for a contribution, as our club will probably have been abusing the blade for many months prior to it breaking.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by RoninX

But what about if you are fencing a friend and flesch into them, lose your balance and cause a corps-a-corps and their blade is caught between you and it breaks. Do you replace it? Do you do this if they are not a friend?

Gawd, people! Is it really too flippin' hard to read a post before responding?

WHAT ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH LOANING SOME HEAVY-HANDED DOUCHE YOUR WEAPON?

Segue into actual helpful response...

I don't recall ever having someone offer to pay for a blade that I broke while I was fencing against them, and if someone did offer, I would most certainly decline.

Blades seldom break from a single event, but most normally break down over time and eventually snap. It would be unusual to perform a fleche SO heinous that the result was the sole cause of an opponent's blade breaking.

I have had situations where opponents trapped my blade with their arm, turned, and snapped the blade. I was plenty miffed, but didn't feel that they owed me a new blade.

[Craig]

Ronin,

Blades break. Just like Mr. Epee said - it's usually not one single event that causes the break, but the number of bends over the (variable) life of the blade.

In the situation you described, I would never expect a new blade.

Now, to jump off of the specific topic and contribute to thread-drift:
If I borrow a blade from someone and break it, then it's customary at my club to offer up a similar blade from your own stock or offer to buy/contribute to a new blade. That's the risk/penalty for not having enough working gear of your own.

Cheers,
Craig

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by RoninX

But what about if you are fencing a friend and flesch into them, lose your balance and cause a corps-a-corps and their blade is caught between you and it breaks. Do you replace it? Do you do this if they are not a friend?

Nope. Doesn't matter whether they're a friend. If it happens on strip, and I didn't take your blade and snap it with my bare hands (one reason not to straighten anyone else's blade), then I don't replace it. Blades break. That's just part of fencing.

Now, if someone in the club is so uncontrolled that someone else's blade breaks on him every couple of weeks, there's a separate problem that doesn't really have anything to do with broken blade etiquette.

Originally Posted by RoninX

Also many of us can rewire new blades with relative ease and can just buy blades, but for some they would either have to learn how to wire and repair or buy a whole new weapon. Does whose blade you break matter in this respect?

Nope. It might be a motivation in holding a "how to repair your own stuff" workshop.

The only time I'd offer to replace someone else's gear is if I'm borrowing it to fence with it. The only time I'd accept someone else's offer to replace my gear is if I loaned them a weapon, they broke it while fencing, and the weapon was fairly new. A reasonably used weapon has a pretty good chance of breaking no matter who is using it.

[RoninX]

Yeah. I guess that how I feel too, if I break my own blade (or you break it while I'm fencing you) I'll replace it. I have always offered to replace club blades I break, but I've never broken someone elses while fencing with it.

If someone offers to replace a blade you broke while fencing them (say it was their aggressive action that finally did it in) would you accept? What if they had a bunch of blades in their bag and could just hand one -and a wire- to you, does that make a difference?

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Craig

Now, to jump off of the specific topic and contribute to thread-drift:

Guess who's going up against the wall when the Revolution comes?

Next time a parent come in and says Little Stevie had Bronchitis two days ago, but he's fine now, they're going up against the wall with Craig and the rest of these thread-drifting mongrels

-----------------------------------

I think I get extra points for contributing to the conversation despite having a massive head cold, and more cough syrup coursing through my veins than your average rebellious high-school cheerleading Poe fan.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by RoninX

Yeah. I guess that how I feel too, if I break my own blade (or you break it while I'm fencing you) I'll replace it. I have always offered to replace club blades I break, but I've never broken someone elses while fencing with it.

Wow. I have always assumed that club blades that fencers are permitted to use are just a "cost of doing business" kind of thing. If the club feels that it's losing too much on gear, then it'll generally forbid specific people from using the blades (if that's the problem) or institute a blade charge to distribute the cost among all of those who use the blades.

Originally Posted by RoninX

If someone offers to replace a blade you broke while fencing them (say it was their aggressive action that finally did it in) would you accept? What if they had a bunch of blades in their bag and could just hand one -and a wire- to you, does that make a difference?

Nope, but I'd love to meet this mythical fencer who carries around the same types of blades that I like to use and is willing to give me one just because he was on strip when my blade broke. I could use some new blades.

Now, I might accept the blade (and pay for it) or just ask to borrow one of the fencer's many spare blades for a few days if I have a local tournament that weekend and no time to get a new blade wired. I normally make the borrowed blade my third weapon that I only use if my first and back up weapons fail.

I don't break blades that often, and when a blade breaks, it's normally after 6 - 12 months of heavy use. I would think it quite strange if someone was fencing me, my weapon broke, and they offered to replace it. No matter what the fencing action.

Like I said, if you are so known behind your back as "Poor Flecher, the Destroyer of Blades" that you feel compelled to offer to replace your opponents' weapons, I'm probably not interested in fencing you in the first place. If you're just offering to replace the blade because you're such a nice guy, I'd try to acquaint you with broken blade etiquette. "Look...blades break. Not your fault. Don't even offer. Unless you want us all to think you're a weirdo."

[Feltan]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

..I was plenty miffed, but didn't feel that they owed me a new blade.

That is what one would expect of someone who crossed the ocean for a heart of gold.

Regards,
Feltan

P.S. For the few of you that didn't follow that response:

I've been to Hollywood, I've been to Redwood
I crossed the ocean for a heart of gold
I've been in my mind, it's such a fine line
That keeps me searching for a heart of gold.

[Larrison]

Hmm.. I borrow it, and it breaks, I pay to return it in as good, or better condition, than when I borrowed it.

If I rent it (and yes there are some clubs that rent blades) and I break it, I ask if I need to pay for a replacement blade. I've never had to, but that's what I'd do, I think. If the cost of rental is to cover replacement blades, then I don't think I should pay extra but you ought to ask if it's covered.

If I'm using my blade and I break it, I pay to fix it.

I've never had a problem -- I have loaned blades out to fellow club fencers at tournaments and for practice, if they desperately needed one. In one case it was broken (it was an oldish blade), and it was returned with a new blade and a new tip. No complaints on my part for that...

[rory]

If you're holding it when it breaks, replace it.
If you're not holding it - not your problem.

[chefencer]

Originally Posted by Feltan

That is what one would expect of someone who crossed the ocean for a heart of gold.

Regards,
Feltan

P.S. For the few of you that didn't follow that response:

I've been to Hollywood, I've been to Redwood
I crossed the ocean for a heart of gold
I've been in my mind, it's such a fine line
That keeps me searching for a heart of gold.

I've been meaning to ask him if he changed his signature as a subconscious reaction to the mineral rights thread... perhaps he's done with ultra cricket and getting away from large friendly letters...

[u r the spoon]

Originally Posted by rory

If you're holding it when it breaks, replace it.
If you're not holding it - not your problem.

i agree. i can't recall borrowing someone's blade and breaking it, but i am sure i have. and i am just as sure that i replaced the blade.

normally, as club armorer, everyone is borrowing my stuff because they don't have time or don't know how fix their stuff--or i haven't had time to fix it for them. (yes, i teach the ones who can learn. but as a competitive fencer, i dont have the time or schedule to teach them all.) if they break my blade, they buy it. if there is a blade that is so old that it is in danger of being broken, i don't loan it out. anyone borrowing my equipment knows that is part of the deal in borrowing it, you break it, you replace it.

[Mergs]

OK, I've got a bit of a problem with the implied thinking that when you borrow, rent or otherwise use someone else's equipment (and that when you accepted possession of it there was a reasonable expectation that it was in good working order and condition) that responsibility for returning the item in the same condition as when you borrowed/took possession of it, is negotiable or up for discussion!

You are still responsible. What I think is up for debate here is how much of a low-life slacker you want to be about fulfilling your responsibilities, which is to return the item in the same or better condition than when you borrowed it. If you can trash someone else's stuff and walk away from it, don't be surpised if you find youself with no one willing to associate with you.

Now if some other meathead damages it while it's in your possession, then the onus is on them to make restitution to you, but it doesn't absolve you from the responsibility to the original owner (gee, sorry dude, but this other guy busted it and he won't pay up, so I guess you're SOL.........NOT!).

If you have a problem with this concept, don't borrow stuff. Make sure your equipment is in good order (not like you can't read any number of threads in the Armoury section and learn how to do it or find the resources there to help out).

[jBirch]

I'm with Mergs on the implication here...if you broke the blade, you offer to replace it. Period. Regardless of how you broke it. So in the example case, if you clearly broke the blade as a result of your own fencing incompetence, then you offer to replace it.

If you didn't break the blade, you offer your condolences and kindly offer to loan one of your own to the other fencer with the expectation that it will come back in the same condition you lent it.

Now, just like everything else in life, there are jerks and rude people who will and can take advantage of you. That doesn't change what you do though and doesn't change the ettiquette around what is and is not appropriate.

And yes, I still open doors for rapid feminists.

James.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by jBirch

And yes, I still open doors for rapid feminists.

James.

What about the slow ones?

[u r the spoon]

Originally Posted by butterfly

What about the slow ones?

ah, beat me to it

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by u r the spoon

ah, beat me to it

Fortunately for me, I'm rapid.....