American Fencing League - Comments, questions, observations?

[Durando]

[quote=qatet] What weapon do you think Foucault would use?
Close reading.

Originally Posted by qatet

Or Derrida?

A comic book.

(It must be remembered, however, that Marx was an épéeist). [Insert indecipherable, quasihistoricist analysis replete with mistranslations, dangling modifiers, and nested subordinate clauses.]

Pomo lamé: electric surface inscription receptacle.

[chefencer]

[quote=Durando]

Originally Posted by qatet

What weapon do you think Foucault would use?
Close reading.


A comic book.

(It must be remembered, however, that Marx was an épéeist). [Insert indecipherable, quasihistoricist analysis replete with mistranslations, dangling modifiers, and nested subordinate clauses.]

Pomo lamé: electric surface inscription receptacle.

Haaaaaahaaaaahaaaahaa!

[shlepzig]

Originally Posted by Frank Pratt

Hey, slow down. We've only been in the Post-Modern era for a few decades. Are we really ready for a Post-Post-Modern Era?

Post Post Modern, would be Pre - Jetsonian and....

I want an epee with freakin' lasers. Is it so difficult to put freakin lasers on an epee?

Shlep.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by TrainingDummy

Eh, AFL sounds post-modern to me. Modern fencing uses chalk and vinegar, the fools! Corrupting fencing, this new lot!

They do use marker dye:

Originally Posted by AFL FAQ

We rely on visual judging instead of a machine. To facilitate judging, épées are equipped with three-pronged pointes d'arret and marker dye.

Perhaps all of this post-modern bit is because they have an unusual timeline. From their homepage:

Originally Posted by AFL News

2/11/06: The board of directors is pleased to announce that Joel Klepper has accepted an appointment to serve as the director representing the National Division for the remainder of this season -- a position that was created by the adoption of our bylaws in January. Joel fences for Southern Oregon Fencing Center in Ashland, Oregon. His term will expire August 31, 2005.

Note the two dates.

-B

[RITFencing]

Perhaps the AFL is composed entirely of tachyon fencers, moving backwards in time? (Relative to us, of course.)

[Wafath]

I guess it all comes down to how you choose to define modern & post-modern. If you use them to define specific cultural eras, I suppose that taking fencing back to 1930's traditions could be seen as "modern" if you choose to believe that the modern era ended with the industrial era.

However, I think the terms are more useful in dealing with aesthetic philosophies. I choose to interpret modernism as the aesthetic of "If it ain't modern, it's crap!", while post-modernism is, borrowing from Larry Wall, "It's all good." (or, there are valuable contributions to be made from all aesthetic philosophies.)

Under those definitions, what most of us do here is "modern" fencing... we look down upon those who do not use the latest interpretations, equipment, timing, training, etc. AFL looks to be more postmodern... a little bit classical, a little bit modern, and a little bit historical.

Of course, I studied neutrons in college, and they don't care about aesthetic, so I could be completely wrong here.

W

[DangerMouse]

Originally Posted by Lefty

Having met Mr. Heggen I can say that he's pretty open minded about fencing and doesn't take himself to seriously. ... But once or twice a year it's fun to gather up a couple of friends, some practice epee's and go try to hit each other so hard that even the judges can see it.

I second this. Or with foils. It's pretty much ths same as the old USFA rules for dry fencing.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by chefencer

I didn't think to search with the words all scrunched together...

I actually ended up doing it by searching for the link.

[courtneyp]

Well since none of my compadres have responded, I will try to speak to the original post of this thread. I personally have no opinion on what is modern, post-modern, post post modern, post office or any of that. But I am a member of the Salle that is holding the AFL event and I have helped organize it. We became members of the AFL to give our fencers another competitive option in the case that they have obstacles to joining in at USFA events - whether those obstacles be just plain nerves or not having means to purchase electric equipment or whatever. Personally, I compete in the regular Va Division USFA meets - as do several of my sallemates - but I also joined in at our last AFL meet. It was great fun, very low key, no pressure, but still everyone fenced the best they could and all agreed it was a good time. We would love to have other folks there. The only downside is you do have to join the AFL - which is $25 a year.

We have deviated a little from AFL posted rules: we do NOT use pointes d'arret or marker dye in epee. Touches are left solely up to the judges: yes, this does result in some bad calls, but hopefully your opponent will get some too. It's a character building exercise We have a shorter strip than the AFL calls for, simply because that's what we have available.

I am glad to answer any other questions, or serve up any biased opinions if desired.

[CarlKnoch]

Since I see that there's an AFL club in my area, I'll be sure to go and fence Foil at one of their events just for fun. It will be worth the $25 fee to join the AFL and the event fee just to give the local club some competition. hehe.

I agree with many here though... Standard Fencing? You know, I thought the standard way of doing something was the way it was universally accepted. Like the way the majority already do it. As the majority of competative fencers already fence electric, with those darn ROW rules that include footwork, I think they are a bit off in their explaination of the two "branches" of fencing. They are the post-modern. USFA is the standard.

CK

[CarlKnoch]

Originally Posted by courtneyp

We have deviated a little from AFL posted rules: we do NOT use pointes d'arret or marker dye in epee. Touches are left solely up to the judges: yes, this does result in some bad calls, but hopefully your opponent will get some too.

In one touch epee, a bad call means you're done for that bout. I don't think I likey that much! lol

CK

[wgreen]

Counrtneyp did a good job of summarizing what we are doing in the tournaments my salle sponsors. As someone whose other life includes worrying about the issues of modernism and post-modernism and a bunch of other isms in academic thought, I spend absolutely no time worrying about it in fencing. After all, if you are a historical, classical, dry, or current edition electric fencer the goal is hit on target. What differs is the environment around the hit. In our case we find that dry is fun as long as you accept it for what it is, teaches a lot about sportsmanship (as everyone has to judge ... the old "there but for the grace of, go I" thing), is a good tool for helping to develop an understanding of the actions, and is a bit less intimidating for new fencers. It is part of a structured salle competition development track that includes class tournaments, ladders, a point standings system, AFL, and USFA.

AFL does some things that are interesting - three weapon individual events and three weapon teams are definitely a fun thing. The organization has some quirks that I would have avoided, has a fascination for returning to the old days of the AFLA, and may be missing the point that the thing that makes them attractive is that they are not the USFA. But we are enjoying the events we host, and we certainly welcome anyone who wants to try dry (or standard or steam) on a 32 foot long wood strip with judges who are learning to judge and directors who are learning to referee.

[chefencer]

Originally Posted by wgreen

Counrtneyp did a good job of summarizing what we are doing in the tournaments my salle sponsors. As someone whose other life includes worrying about the issues of modernism and post-modernism and a bunch of other isms in academic thought, I spend absolutely no time worrying about it in fencing. After all, if you are a historical, classical, dry, or current edition electric fencer the goal is hit on target. What differs is the environment around the hit. In our case we find that dry is fun as long as you accept it for what it is, teaches a lot about sportsmanship (as everyone has to judge ... the old "there but for the grace of, go I" thing), is a good tool for helping to develop an understanding of the actions, and is a bit less intimidating for new fencers. It is part of a structured salle competition development track that includes class tournaments, ladders, a point standings system, AFL, and USFA.

AFL does some things that are interesting - three weapon individual events and three weapon teams are definitely a fun thing. The organization has some quirks that I would have avoided, has a fascination for returning to the old days of the AFLA, and may be missing the point that the thing that makes them attractive is that they are not the USFA. But we are enjoying the events we host, and we certainly welcome anyone who wants to try dry (or standard or steam) on a 32 foot long wood strip with judges who are learning to judge and directors who are learning to referee.

I believe our club is glad for the opportunity you describe and I imagine some of us will be coming down in the near future. (Shoot, $25 a year's not bad and you can't beat $2 registration!) I also appreciate the explanation of your salle's point of view. Three weapon team sounds very fun - although I should probably learn how to hold a sabre, first...

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by chefencer

I believe our club is glad for the opportunity you describe and I imagine some of us will be coming down in the near future. (Shoot, $25 a year's not bad and you can't beat $2 registration!) I also appreciate the explanation of your salle's point of view. Three weapon team sounds very fun - although I should probably learn how to hold a sabre, first...

Am I the only one who can't figure out when these competitions are going to be held? I can find results. I can find a schedule which includes events that have already happened. I can find a registration page for future events WITHOUT DATES! I can't find a future schedule that has any AFL tournaments on it (other than the AFL national schedule on their page).

Little help please?

-B

[chefencer]

I know Salle Green uses askfred...

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by chefencer

I know Salle Green uses askfred...

Thanks.

Cool points for you on their way....
-B

[oiuyt]

Note: Chuck Smith, who is registered for the mixed novice epee linked to by chefencer is not actually eligbile. His USFA C makes him an AFL Junior.

I also would not be eligible for either of the two events (were I to join the AFL I would immediately become a "Junior" in all three weapons).

-B

[wgreen]

For those interested, our dates for the rest of the fencing year are:

18 June Novice Foil 10:00 (pools), Novice Epee (1 touch) 1300 (pool unique)

23 July 3 Weapon Individual (5 touch foil, 1 touch epee, 5 touch sabre) 1000 (probably run double elimination)

Both of these events will be up on FRED. The first event in August will probably be sabre, and we plan to run one event a month after that, with every effort to deconflict with the Virginia Division USFA schedule.

I may be struck by lightning for saying so, but we are not too worried about fencer's USFA classifications and their translation to AFL. Our focus is building a reasonable progression through the AFL system (which is really the old AFLA system pre-1960s ... another thing I don't quite understand why AFL did - the AFLA went to A, B, C, U for a good reason). It will be a long time before we have enough participation and high enough performance for it to make much of a difference. So Chuck is welcome. We just want people fencing, having fun, and not being too immersed in rank, classification, etc. We view those as training tools to help our developing bout committee people struggle through seeding processes (even administrators should suffer some ...).

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by wgreen

I may be struck by lightning for saying so, but we are not too worried about fencer's USFA classifications and their translation to AFL. Our focus is building a reasonable progression through the AFL system (which is really the old AFLA system pre-1960s ... another thing I don't quite understand why AFL did - the AFLA went to A, B, C, U for a good reason). It will be a long time before we have enough participation and high enough performance for it to make much of a difference. So Chuck is welcome. We just want people fencing, having fun, and not being too immersed in rank, classification, etc. We view those as training tools to help our developing bout committee people struggle through seeding processes (even administrators should suffer some ...).

Then I'd suggest either saying so explicitly or changing the designation of the tournaments. While 4 1/2 hours (each way) drive is fairly long, I might consider coming down at some point (especially for a 3W event). If I thought I were ineligible (say, because your naming scheme tells me that I am) this would absolutely not happen.

Interesting that the AFL uses USFA classifications at the time of joining, but doesn't honor changes to the USFA classifications after that date. While I can think of several reasons why that might be true, it doesn't seem to make much sense if the goal is to improve seeding or classification in the AFL system.

-B