Stop hits

[Coby]

Being rather new to the foil i was watching the more experienced fencers execute the stop hit an awesome move is this as i imagine a combination of timing, distance etc any tips would be good thanks..

[fencingfrog]

i can't always make them work but here's what i do:
1. try to parry riposte - this usually doesn't work
2. extend my arm to hit
3. keep going backwards
4. try desprately not to get hit, cuz im counterattacking.
5. (optional) when it works, laugh.

[RITFencing]

This is coming from an epeeist, so I'm not sure how applicable it will be for you. I've found that the trick with stop hits is to wait until the moment you can hit, going for it, and backing the hell up. In essence, I let my opponent close distance until I can take my shot (with an extension only; I like to move back with stop hits) and then I open the distance back up until I'm safe again. Ideally they never really have a window to hit. I usually accomplish this by retreating a bit slower than they come after me, letting them think they're stealing distance, and then when it's time to get out of dodge, retreating a bit faster than they were coming in.

[Poulet]

To adapt what RITFencing said to foil, just add a check that your opponent won't be able to finish before the lockout when you judge whether or not you can reach him/her.

[RITFencing]

Good call on that; with the longer lockout timing opening that distance up afterwards is crucial. You'll probably need more than one retreat.

[Poulet]

Stophits in foil are chiefly looking for times when the opponent takes his/her point off the target, typically to avoid the constant searching many do while going back. One of the best ways to land a stophit is to wait for your opponent to start an attack, let the distance close a little, start searching a lot, then hit and get out of distance quickly or hit and step in (so the opponent's blade will be somewhere past your arm or leg before they are ready to finish), once the attacker pulls his/her hand back.

[seven6ty]

Yah, good idea to turn your body a bit too, so they have a minimal amount of target open to them.

[D'Art]

Are you left or right handed, Coby? This makes a difference to what works and what doesn't.

[cpl593h]

I'm a new sabre fencer and stop cuts are something I'm having trouble understanding. When is it valid to stop-cut, i.e. does not violate the principle of right-of-way?

[RoninX]

stop cuts (to my understanding) always are against the ROW grain. You are simply attacking counterattacking in time (or out of time depending on how you view it) and banking on making only one light go off (ideally yours ).


In saber stop cuts usually invlove hitting the extended arm and then parrying or getting the heck out of there. Preventing your opponent from hitting in the window where their light will still go off.

Note: IMO attacking into prep is not really a "stop cut" as you have priority

[keropie]

Originally Posted by cpl593h

I'm a new sabre fencer and stop cuts are something I'm having trouble understanding. When is it valid to stop-cut, i.e. does not violate the principle of right-of-way?

A stop cut is in time (has ROW) iff it arrives before the beginning of the final action by the attacker. So if the 'attacker' feints, you make a stop cut that arrives before they begin their 'deceive' (which is the final action), even if they turn on both lights, the stop cut is in time. You can also get this call if the 'attacker' is holding his/her attack back (preparing, or marching, or whatever you choose to call it) and you hit them before, in the opinion of the official, the attack ever begins, but now we're playing on the line of stop cut/hit and AoP.

[fixxmyweapon]

stop hits= so much fun and one of my favorite things to do. it all has to do with the timing. don't time it right and it's called a counter attack and everyone just laughs at how silly that was.

[keropie]

counterattack=stop hit

or for those of you who are worried about the symbolic logic of the system

stop hit is a subset of the set of counterattacks

[Chafunkta]

Originally Posted by Coby

Being rather new to the foil i was watching the more experienced fencers execute the stop hit an awesome move is this as i imagine a combination of timing, distance etc any tips would be good thanks..

Tip #1: Use periods

Tip #2 : Don't stop hit. A parry-riposte would be much, much better. However, there are a couple of situations when stop hits can be used successfully.

If a fencer is making a huge preparation (winding up with their arm, performing big disengages, or attacking with a pumping arm) you can successfully perform a stop hit at the right time. Just make sure you make them miss, either by retreating like the dickens, or closing the distance so they can't hit.

Of course, doing this will almost always end up being called your counterattack (that's why the 'make them miss' part was emphasized). One way to avoid this is after doing the stop-hit close the line they want to finish in before they can get their point on. I suggest doing this on every stop-hit.

[Poulet]

Originally Posted by Chafunkta

Tip #1: Use periods

It's ironic that you're missing one.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by keropie

A stop cut is in time (has ROW) iff it arrives before the beginning of the final action by the attacker.

A quibble: being "in time" and having right of way (a.k.a "priority") are two different things. Right of way applies when there's not a full tempo between the touches. If there's a full tempo between the touches, the first one is "in time", and it doesn't matter whether it has right of way or not. Frequently, people say an action has right of way as a shorthand for saying it has the "right to score" -- and I think that's what keropie is doing -- but a counterattack that hits "in time" still doesn't have right of way in the technical sense, even though it has the right to score.

[dramamine]

Originally Posted by Poulet

Stophits in foil are chiefly looking for times when the opponent takes his/her point off the target, typically to avoid the constant searching many do while going back. One of the best ways to land a stophit is to wait for your opponent to start an attack, let the distance close a little, start searching a lot, then hit and get out of distance quickly or hit and step in (so the opponent's blade will be somewhere past your arm or leg before they are ready to finish), once the attacker pulls his/her hand back.

I think this post is pretty accurate. I am only 5'9 and I can pull stop hits off on some pretty tall guys by drawing a preparation with a search for the blade, or by doing lots of parry ripostes in earlier actions. I think if you watch the good fencers usually they will usually start the bout by doing lots of parry ripostes against their opponents' simple attacks, so the opponent gets frustrated and does delayed attacks which is when the stop hit works. I think it is a tough hit for a newer fencer to pull off and what you should do is try to get the ripostes until you are fencing someone good and they start pulling their hand because they are afraid of your riposte.

[keropie]

Originally Posted by Goldgar

A quibble: being "in time" and having right of way (a.k.a "priority") are two different things. Right of way applies when there's not a full tempo between the touches. If there's a full tempo between the touches, the first one is "in time", and it doesn't matter whether it has right of way or not. Frequently, people say an action has right of way as a shorthand for saying it has the "right to score" -- and I think that's what keropie is doing -- but a counterattack that hits "in time" still doesn't have right of way in the technical sense, even though it has the right to score.

Sure, but I think it's largely a matter of perspective. I agree with you that in respect to the 'first' action by the attacker, the stop hit has no ROW, but just like counterattacks, the action could be parsed differently under a different microscope. Take the action attack, counterattack, remise of attack. If you take the action as a whole, you can argue that the counterattack 'has ROW' over the remise, though it's really the same as a stop hit. Under a different magnification though (one where you don't see the first attack), it would be as accurate to just call it attack, counterattack (from the otherside as the attacker), and that attack 'has ROW.'

But yes, I agree, the stop hit doesn't really have ROW w/in the phrase, it simply scores because someone was scratching their butt. I definitely short handed it somewhat, in terms of saying that any action that scores when there are two lights on the machine has ROW, which is clearly an oversimplification, even if it does help to explain actions sometimes.

[Epeecurean]

Originally Posted by Chafunkta

Tip #2 : Don't stop hit. A parry-riposte would be much, much better. However, there are a couple of situations when stop hits can be used successfully.

I would amend Chafunkta's tips by saying that if it's not the right type of attack to parry-riposte, then a riposte-parry might be a good idea. By this I mean a stop-hit followed by a parry against their out-of-tempo attack. Even if your stop-hit is in time, it's always better to keep it a one-light situation to keep the ref from messing it up!

Edit: I see now that Chafunkta says the same (about closing out) at the end of his post, so we're on the same wavelength.

[cs3dswb]

Originally Posted by keropie

counterattack=stop hit

or for those of you who are worried about the symbolic logic of the system

stop hit is a subset of the set of counterattacks

lol what you meant to say was

stophit = counterattack

because a stophit is always a counterattack whereas a counterattack is not necesarily a stophit.

Originally Posted by cpl593h

I'm a new sabre fencer and stop cuts are something I'm having trouble understanding. When is it valid to stop-cut, i.e. does not violate the principle of right-of-way?

A stophit is ALWAYS against the ROW as in they are attacking and you hit them while they are attacking.

If you hit them while they are in preparation (while you have ROW) then it is an attack into preparation and NOT a stophit.