My arm is about to fall off! Any suggestions on relaxing it?

[Monsieur le Comte]

Holding my arm out for so long during a practice session is killing me. I went from 8 years of karate (and boxing) where during drills we'd often hold our arms out rigidly. My instructor keeps telling me to relax my arm but I can't seem to get over this habit.

Has anybody else had this trouble when starting out? Maybe it's a problem with my grip?

If anybody has any ideas or exercises I can do to try and improve my ability to hold my arm out it'd be greatly appreciated.

[seven6ty]

I just posted almost this exact thing in another post about the Brooklyn Athletic Club, I believe it was:

Quote:
I have a small frame and small hands, and although I am very athletic and quite strong, my grip tends to weaken after a while and my hand "cramps" up on me, giving me almost no grip whatsoever; wherein the slighest beat almost knocks the blade off my hand.

Yeah, I'd agree with whoever posted earlier about learning to loosen up your grip a lot. After 8 years of fencing I still did this horribly. I used to think that as soon as I loosened my grip or stance, that someone would notice and attack me right away. After taking 4 years off and starting back up again, the first thing I learned was how to loosen up properly. It's completely possible to have a very lax and loose grip/stance, so long as you are doing it properly, and still be able to hit on a moment's notice.

Keep your entire arm relatively loose, but in the correct position. Once you are confident enough that you are doing this correctly, it will be much easier to keep your arm and hand loose. I've found this is paramount in preventing me from getting sore, tired and fatigued early on in a tournament, which I've found to be my number one adversary in any large tournament I've entered.

So yeah, if you're getting sore and cramped, it's most likely because you have a death grip on your weapon and you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss pistol grips. They can offer you just as much, if not a more secure grip on your weapon, plus more control, than a traditional french grip.

[seven6ty]

Ah, and one other thing that it took me a very long time to find out...

When extending your arm, most people who are starting out have the tendency to completely "lock" their elbow, making it completely straight. Don't do this. When extending, you should always have a tiny bit of a bend left in your elbow. Locking it kills your reach, locks up your arm, and makes it very hard to move your blade/arm any more after that. When extending, make sure your hand is shoulder level, and elevate it as you go into your lunge, over the height of your shoulder. Keep your arm loose, so you can still make disengages, bend your arm back, etc. This will help greatly in preventing fatigue on the strip, as well as allowing you to change positions more easily.

[RITFencing]

If you look up Dave Littel's site, he has some excellent advice on keeping a relaxed body. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

[Monsieur le Comte]

Thanks for the advice!

I am keeping my arm bent, and I know I need to keep it loose. It's just uber hard to do.

[RITFencing]

Here it is.

[RITFencing]

Also, from my own experience, when I have a student who keeps their arm too tense (95% of them, really) I have them let it hang totally limp. They have a harder time doing this than one might realize; the first time I pick it up and let go, they instinctively try to harden it. Once they really keep no tension in it at all, I test it by picking up and dropping their hand a few times. When I'm satisfied, I hold up their arm in a good position and tell them "Ok, now use JUST enough tension to hold it up." I make sure I can still push it around easily; there should be no real resistance. I feel the muscles on the forearm, bicep and shoulder to make sure there's no excess tension, and then I tell them to really think about the feeling in those muscles. Every time they get on guard, I tell them to try and duplicate that feeling. It takes time, but it generally helps them loosen up.

[Allen Evans]

Another method: put your weapon down on the floor. Get on guard, and look at something across the room. Point at it with your hand, like you'd point out a far away object to someone standing next to you. Do this several times.

Pick up your weapon. Replicate the same motion.

See? Easy!

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by seven6ty

When extending, make sure your hand is shoulder level, and elevate it as you go into your lunge, over the height of your shoulder.

Why?

First off this isn't an attack on seven6ty's post. I've never heard a good reason for elevating the hand in the lunge. It is a component of French fencing and, I believe, a hold over from smallsword fighting. There are several reasons not to do this in modern fencing; the shortest distance between to points...., the elevated hand can obscure your vision and most of the target in foil is below the oponent's shoulders.

[RITFencing]

When you lunge, your upper body will sink down a bit. Raising your hand compensates for this motion and keeps your tip in relatively the same place.

[u r the spoon]

Another thing to rememember is that you should keep your shoulder relaxed. If it is creeping up to your ear, it isn't relaxed. I didn't have so much of a problem keeping the arm slightly bent or relaxed when I started, but it took me years to learn to keep my shoulder relaxed.

[seven6ty]

When you lunge, your upper body will sink down a bit. Raising your hand compensates for this motion and keeps your tip in relatively the same place.

Exactly. If you keep your hand the same height, in relation to your shoulder, if you're trying to hit over your opponent's bell guard, you won't be able to as your hand sinks to or below their guard level if you lunge. It just serves to keep your point/weapon in the same place as when you started your lunge, providing a stable platform from which to hit. Not to mention it covers the top side of your arm. If you don't do this, the top of your arm, from your thumb, up to the bib of your mask is open for your opponent to hit.

[Monsieur le Comte]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Here it is.

Thanks! That link has lots of good advice in there.

[Schiavona]

Continuing threadjack.....

Originally Posted by RITFencing

When you lunge, your upper body will sink down a bit. Raising your hand compensates for this motion and keeps your tip in relatively the same place.

Yes, your body drops. Using your fingers to raise your tip does the same thing, without the negatives of raising your hand.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by seven6ty

Exactly. If you keep your hand the same height, in relation to your shoulder, if you're trying to hit over your opponent's bell guard, you won't be able to as your hand sinks to or below their guard level if you lunge. It just serves to keep your point/weapon in the same place as when you started your lunge, providing a stable platform from which to hit. Not to mention it covers the top side of your arm. If you don't do this, the top of your arm, from your thumb, up to the bib of your mask is open for your opponent to hit.

In epee. Of course, other variables intrude. Such as; am I taller than my opponent? is my opponent taller than me? how low is my lunge? how low is my opponent's lunge? I have no objection to raising the hand after the hit, actually, I have no objection to raising the hand in epee at all-at least for my opponents.

I've never seen any real reason to do this in foil, other than, "That's how my Coach had me do it.".

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

Continuing threadjack.....



Yes, your body drops. Using your fingers to raise your tip does the same thing, without the negatives of raising your hand.

Not really; raising the tip changes the angle of the blade, which can make it more difficult to hit a certain target and can also leave you open for a counter attack. Bear in mind that this is for epee.

In the same vein, attacking with a bell guard slightly raised keeps the arm much safer and encourages a proper bend in the weapon when you hit.

[Go? Fencing?]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

I've never seen any real reason to do this in foil, other than, "That's how my Coach had me do it.".

It helps the blade bend the right way. Of course, this will depend on the blade you're using, too, but for me at least, raising my hand when I attack helps the blade bend up so that I can actually make a proper attack that lands where I want it to, otherwise my blade will often bend down, and that messes with my elbow.

[seven6ty]

I've never seen any real reason to do this in foil, other than, "That's how my Coach had me do it.".

Well, perhaps you haven't looked very hard. The first and most obvious reason would be to try and keep any height advantage you can and not to let your opponent "get the high ground" on you. Like I said, it also keeps your body very well covered and puts your point/hand firmly in your opponent's face in a much more threatening position. It's the same reason you attack with your hand up high, and not down low. And yes, I learned this from an Olympic foil fencer, Heizaburo Okawa, who was the first to show this to me.

[knave]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

I've never seen any real reason to do this in foil, other than, "That's how my Coach had me do it.".

I find when I keep my hand up, my hits are more sure and I get debounced less. Nothing like getting that tricky indirect riposte then getting no light when your blade is bent on their lame.

..stupid timing...

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by seven6ty

Well, perhaps you haven't looked very hard. The first and most obvious reason would be to try and keep any height advantage you can and not to let your opponent "get the high ground" on you. Like I said, it also keeps your body very well covered and puts your point/hand firmly in your opponent's face in a much more threatening position. It's the same reason you attack with your hand up high, and not down low. And yes, I learned this from an Olympic foil fencer, Heizaburo Okawa, who was the first to show this to me.

None of which is revelant to foil. Attacking so high ignores most of the target in foil.

Attacking with your hand above your shoulder in foil has more negatives than positives. "Aids in the weapon bending the right way" to my mind doesn't offset loosing an inch, or in some cases 2 inches, of distance. You can easily learn to make your blade bend up with finger control.

Knave's reason is a new one and very interesting. Though I believe that the same result can be achieved through finger control.