A Protest to PCS Scheduling.

[dbl90]

As a member of the Pacific Coast Circuit I found myself looking at the posted schedule to find something that for me would greatly impact my upcoming season: events are to be held on the only two days of the year I cannot possibly compete.

Yes, this reason is personal, and it is religious, but I find that it is without tact or sensitivity to schedule fencing events on both Yum Kippur and Rosh Hashanah. One event on a given day I’d understand perhaps, but events on both seem absolutely ridiculous.

I understand that people with my religious viewpoint may perhaps be a minority in the population, but are still a significant percentage of fencers. I realize religious accommodations cannot be made for everyone, because nearly all the calendar would be blocked off. No tournaments on Saturdays for the Jews or certain Christian denominations, no Sundays for Mormons and other Christian denominations. Yet, I should hope some compromises can be made in terms of scheduling. Not abstaining from holding tournaments during the two days in which almost every Jew, no matter how religious, attends services isn't exactly a good idea. It is like holding an event on Xmas and Easter, although one would lose less participants in the current circumstance, there still will be a definite loss in participation, I know plenty of Jewish individuals in the PCS and I am sure almost, if not all will not attend competition on those dates.

I would be equally offended if dates were scheduled that would leave out any religious group, and would be much annoyed if events were scheduled concurrent to NACs or anything on a national level.

I hope, although most likely in vain, that these events can be rescheduled and thus formally protest. I will the make assumption that this choice was not deliberate, as holidays on the lunar Jewish calendar can be hard to track.

I'm quite disappointed in the PCS section, something which I do not have occasion to say often. I hope that in the future that more care is put into selecting dates which do not interfere with any holiday, especially the most sacred to any religious group.

[keropie]

Originally Posted by dbl90

I hope, although most likely in vain, that these events can be rescheduled and thus formally protest. I will the make assumption that this choice was not deliberate, as holidays on the lunar Jewish calendar can be hard to track.

While I hope that something can be done, and sympathize with your plight, I do hope you are submitting your formal protest somewhere other than f.net. While I'm sure someone from PCS will see it and probably make sure that those in power are aware, I doubt a posting here will fulfill the same role as a formal protest. Good luck!

Mike

[Philistine]

Wouldn't this post be better in this thread--where the issue has already been raised?

--Philistine

[dbl90]

I am also planning to mail a letter I have written on the occasion I have time to get to a post office.

I didn't exactly want to hijack the thread for it's usage of discussion of other facets of the PCS schedule.

[DHCJr]

First let me say that each circuit tournament is organized by separate groups, so there is no way to check when the others are schedule except that traditionally the time of year.

Second, when was the Sierra Nevada this year? It wasn't because it had a limited amount of times and none could be accomodated. What should they do if that was the only weekend they could get.

I have been to a tournament scheduled on Easter. Not only Easter, but the whole Easter Week. This was a Junior Worlds.

[Poulet]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I have been to a tournament scheduled on Easter. Not only Easter, but the whole Easter Week. This was a Junior Worlds.

That doesn't mean we can't try for something better in our section.

[jrgunn]

Originally Posted by Poulet

That doesn't mean we can't try for something better in our section.

Agreed. The problem lies in the fact that many in this community don't understand the importance that going to service has for those of us who regularly attend church, synagogue, etc.
On the other hand, as has been observed, sometimes we can only get the necessary venue on certain dates. That's no one's fault.
Personally, I think the only real way around this is to establish a location (motel room?) at events where small services for attending fencers can be held at the appropriate time of day (keeping in mind that a certain flexibility would be necessary; we all know how things go...).
Hmm...its a thought.

[edew]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

First let me say that each circuit tournament is organized by separate groups, so there is no way to check when the others are schedule except that traditionally the time of year.

Second, when was the Sierra Nevada this year? It wasn't because it had a limited amount of times and none could be accomodated. What should they do if that was the only weekend they could get.

I have been to a tournament scheduled on Easter. Not only Easter, but the whole Easter Week. This was a Junior Worlds.

SNO was originally scheduled for the weekend after the March NAC in Reno. However, they cancelled not because of times, but because a main sponsor pulled out and the funding was not available.

Again, this is not so much a complaint on the individual organizers, but basically on the section officers who should have made a note on hosting events on major holidays as a no-no.

Look, there's only 5, at best, PCS circuits. That's five weekends. I'm sure it's possible to find five weekends that aren't on major religious holidays.

[hello?]

We had a tournament on Easter Sunday in our division and people complained. The tournament took place, but I have to say not as many people showed up as would have on another day.....I think we should avoid having to force people to make a choice between religion and fencing!!! (The family who complained about the Easter tournament -- all they wanted was the tournament start time moved to later, so they could go to Church first -- did not do so well. When the boy lost his DE, 15-14, the father, who was standing next to me, simply said, in a low, resigned voice: "We could have gone to Church." I have to say, it was funny at the time....but we should try to avoid this!) I personally hate that Sectionals in our Section are always on Mother's Day weekend...What about mothers who have non-fencing and fencing kids?

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by dbl90

I understand that people with my religious viewpoint may perhaps be a minority in the population, but are still a significant percentage of fencers. I realize religious accommodations cannot be made for everyone, because nearly all the calendar would be blocked off.

As you say, a thorny question. Throw in graduations, work deadlines, final tests, 50-year birthdays, golden anniversaries, important job days, and it becomes totally impossible to accomodate everyone.

Originally Posted by dbl90

I hope, although most likely in vain, that these events can be rescheduled and thus formally protest. I will the make assumption that this choice was not deliberate, as holidays on the lunar Jewish calendar can be hard to track.

I assume that your case would be strengthened if you provide those in power with a weblink of all Jewish holidays, in the ordinary calendar. Can´t hurt for next year!

BTW: Any guesstimate on how large percentage of USFA fencers who are Jewish? Over here (Sweden) I have never met a fencer, and extremely few others, who self-identify as a Jew.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Poulet]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

BTW: Any guesstimate on how large percentage of USFA fencers who are Jewish? Over here (Sweden) I have never met a fencer, and extremely few others, who self-identify as a Jew.

This may not help answer your query in the least, but keep in mind that there are about 328 times as many Jews in the United States as in Sweden.

[seak]

A calendar with all holidays Jewish, Christian and Others through at least the next several years, you can even customize by what type of holidays you are interested in.

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/...n=on&hol=86073

There are a higher number of fencers who are Jewish then Jews in the overall population (at least in the coastal areas) in America. Some even managed to make the Olympic team

(yeah I need to spend less time trolling around the Jewish Hall of Fame)

[needle]

Originally Posted by Poulet

This may not help answer your query in the least, but keep in mind that there are about 328 times as many Jews in the United States as in Sweden.

Oh, come on! There're definitely more than 328 of us in the United States

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by seak

A calendar with all holidays Jewish, Christian and Others through at least the next several years, you can even customize by what type of holidays you are interested in.

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/...n=on&hol=86073

There are a higher number of fencers who are Jewish then Jews in the overall population (at least in the coastal areas) in America. Some even managed to make the Olympic team

(yeah I need to spend less time trolling around the Jewish Hall of Fame)

First thank you for this, but it shows that even having a calendar like this won't help.

For example, LBI is on September 30th - October 1st. Look at the calendar, Yom Kippur is on the 2nd. No conflict.

I know those who are Jewish or those who know that Jewish holidays start at sundown are going to say there is a conflict. But is this common knowledge?

I am not involved with the scheduling as I know how much work it is and I am lazy. The people who did do the schedule may have looked at a calendar and seen no conflict, I don't know.

Why should we just worry about Christian and Jewish holidays? Why not Islamic, Hindu, Wiccan or any other religion?

[seak]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

First thank you for this, but it shows that even having a calendar like this won't help.

For example, LBI is on September 30th - October 1st. Look at the calendar, Yom Kippur is on the 2nd. No conflict.

I know those who are Jewish or those who know that Jewish holidays start at sundown are going to say there is a conflict. But is this common knowledge?

I am not involved with the scheduling as I know how much work it is and I am lazy. The people who did do the schedule may have looked at a calendar and seen no conflict, I don't know.

Why should we just worry about Christian and Jewish holidays? Why not Islamic, Hindu, Wiccan or any other religion?

No problem if you go to google and type in calendar it is the first link. Looking at dates even years in advance calls for all of 1 minute of work. As someone who has been involved with the scheduling of major events. I make it part of my job to find when the major holidays are (Christian, Jewish and Islam).

I think the fact that Jewish holidays start sundown is fairly common knowledge at least in my area. Again though it would not be hard to find with a modicum of research.

It is hard to schedule and to find a weekend that conflicts with no ones schedule is difficult. I don't think that you would see a tournament scheduled for xmas day, but most of the country is Christian. However, to have two consecutive large tournaments in the same section that conflict with the two largest Jewish holidays of the year, seems to me not in the best of taste. If the reason for the scheduling is that they were unaware of the conflict, I would contend that they were lazy, despite Judiasm being on a lunar calendar the dates are not that hard to find even years in advance on the internet.

As to have tournaments later in the day so that one could attend both services and the tournament, this works far better in the Christian religion then in Judiasm. For instance there is no safe way one could fence and celebrate Yom Kippur as you are not allowed to eat or drink all day. If you are a religous Jew you have no ability to compete on any Saturday regardless of the tournament start time. However, you do not see many Jews protesting Saturday tournaments in the normal course of things. For all the Jews in the PC section it might be nice if one or both of the tournaments was moved, I can understand why they feel the need to protest.

[edew]

Because the others are kind enough not to b**ch and moan. :Bigtime rolleyes:

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by seak

No problem if you go to google and type in calendar it is the first link. Looking at dates even years in advance calls for all of 1 minute of work. As someone who has been involved with the scheduling of major events. I make it part of my job to find when the major holidays are (Christian, Jewish and Islam).

I think the fact that Jewish holidays start sundown is fairly common knowledge at least in my area. Again though it would not be hard to find with a modicum of research.

It is hard to schedule and to find a weekend that conflicts with no ones schedule is difficult. I don't think that you would see a tournament scheduled for xmas day, but most of the country is Christian. However, to have two consecutive large tournaments in the same section that conflict with the two largest Jewish holidays of the year, seems to me not in the best of taste. If the reason for the scheduling is that they were unaware of the conflict, I would contend that they were lazy, despite Judiasm being on a lunar calendar the dates are not that hard to find even years in advance on the internet.

As to have tournaments later in the day so that one could attend both services and the tournament, this works far better in the Christian religion then in Judiasm. For instance there is no safe way one could fence and celebrate Yom Kippur as you are not allowed to eat or drink all day. If you are a religous Jew you have no ability to compete on any Saturday regardless of the tournament start time. However, you do not see many Jews protesting Saturday tournaments in the normal course of things. For all the Jews in the PC section it might be nice if one or both of the tournaments was moved, I can understand why they feel the need to protest.

I didn't understand about the fasting. Since Yom Kippur is on the 2nd does that mean you don't eat, starting at sundown on the 1st and ending sundown on the 2nd or does it mean starting sundown on the 30th and ending on sundown the 1st?

[seak]

Starting at sundown on the first ending at sundown on the 2nd. In practice this means that you eat a big meal at about 5-5:30 pm on the evening of in this case the first, and the meal ends before Sundown

[oso97]

Disclaimer of Potential Bias: I was raised Catholic, and currently am non-practicing.

As a tournament coordinator and coach, I often have to think about the issues of scheduling and how religious holidays and practices impact thereon. Its a dicey issue to be sure, as, pretty much no matter what you do, you're bound to eventually exclude/disadvantage/hurt the feelings of/insult someone. The only solution I have found is to ignore the issue from a religious perspective and look at it solely from a customer service perspective.

Some background. I have students of a number of various different faiths. One won't come to any tournaments on Sundays (he's Mormon and often won't do Mondays either because of religious proscriptions). Another I've had in the past wouldn't come to any tournaments on Saturdays (she was Orthodox Jewish). I have had numerous promising students who never developed to competitve status, because they were of a Prodestant denomination in which Wednesday evening was reserved for services and missing services on Sunday morning to compete in an event or travel thereto was proscribed. I also live in an area with a goodly number of Muslim competitive fencers, who have to deal with the demands of Ramadan each year. Trying to accomidate everyone fully would leave me unable to function.

If a student of mine is going to make the jump from a recreational level fencer to a serious competitor, its going to, by neccessity, result in the sacrifice of something else in the life of that student. This is the nature of competitive athletics (or any other serious activity) - one cannot be good in everything and do everything to its utmost possibility, as there are only so many hours in a day, days in a week and weeks in a year. I encourage my recreational and beginning competitive fencers to have fun and enjoy themselves and to not sacrifice the rest of their lives for fencing. But when my students tell me that they wish to be seriously competitive, the first thing I do is sit them down and have a long chat with them about the demands that a serious pursuit of a sport places. Once they understand this, then they are in a position to begin to evaluate the sacrifices such a pursuit entails (and consequently, I feel more comfortable dedicating additional time and energy to them).

If a fencer feels that other things in their life are more important then fencing, then that is their perogative, and no one should ridicule them, belittle them or otherwise make them feel uncomfortable. By the same token, if someone chooses to be a serious practicioner of the sport, then one should realize that this commitment is going to entail the sacrifice of other things in their life. And not neccessarily of a religious nature - I've had students decide they wanted to do Band or Theatre instead for example, and I've also had students give up those activities in order to concentrate on fencing.

By the same token though, I'm also a businessman, and if I found that a significant portion of my potential customer base was being turned off because of something in my schedule I could change, I would do so in a heartbeat. In fact, I did. When I realized that a significant (perhaps 25%) of my potential customer base was turned off by the idea of Wednesday evening introductory fencing classes and recreational level practices (beacuse of Prodestant Wendesday night services, something I'd never even HEARD of growing up Catholic), I quickly moved the Wednesday class to Thursday, and made Wednesday a night for more serious competitive level students. Good buisiness practices, that's all.

By the same token, I have a series of developmental level tournaments that I host. The facility that I use for these is available on Sunday afternoons, and I've often been complimented for scheduling the event there, becuase it doesn't interfere with soccer games/basketball games/etc on Saturdays, but also leaves Sunday morning for services. Even when I have my own facility and can schedule these developmental events whenever I want, I'm going to keep them on Sunday afternoons, because that is when my customer base wants them to be.

Similarly speaking, if the organizers of an event feel that by scheduling it on a particular weekend, be that Christmas, New Years, Yom Kippur, Superbowl, or whatever, is going to cause them to have a significantly reduced attendance, then it would behoove them to change it. If they feel it is not, or that by moving it to another date it would impact their event even more, then there is no reason for them to do so.

Just my thoughts.