Holocaust denial

[Moses]

I had my first conversation with a Holocaust denier a day or two ago.

Apparently all the Jews, gypsies and homosexuals went to Pakistan and Auschwitz was summer camp for all the Jewish children of Germany because none of their parents couldn't afford to bring them along (despite the fact that the Jews "had influence in everything").

...and apparently Americans have no right to talk about the Holocaust because of what the government did during the Plains Wars.

...and the study of history has been permanently corrupted by the Jews, too.

...and Jews started the war.

...and apparently that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for them evil Swiss people (how that got injected into the conversation I still do not know).

The funny thing, though, is that she even managed to get my friend Drew against her, who admires Hitler quite a bit (except for the racism part... go figure).

'Twas an odd night.

-Da Mose

[bigdawg2121]

I guess if there can still be people that maintain that the Earth is flat, these people are bound to exist as well.

[VELISARIOS]

The files about the holocaust will be open at the end of this year. We will see many answers. But this theory that the holocaust had never be is an old story.

[rory]

Wow. Blithering idiots +1.

[TrainingDummy]

I've read a fair amount of Holocaust denial literature, and it's utter crap. An interesting read, though.

[gtmac]

The files about the holocaust will be open at the end of this year. We will see many answers. But this theory that the holocaust had never be is an old story.

Yes, but these documents too have been concoted by the Jews. It's called a self-reinforcing delusion. You can't rationally convince someone that a firmly held irrational belief is inaccurate based on the facts.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

I had my first conversation with a Holocaust denier a day or two ago.

Any reason for why you would have to associate with this person in the future? If not, just avoid the nut.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Epee_Pox]

What exactly is the point of holocaust denial? What need is filled by holding firmly to such a position?

Is it an unwillingness to admit that humans can commit genocide? But we do it all the time! The holocaust was but one of many such acts throughout history, many of which are well-documented.

Is it an unwillingness to admit that civilized humans can do it? But we do it all the time! As your own friend points out, just as the Apaches and Comanches tried to wipe out competing tribes, so did the Mexicans and then the Americans try to wipe them out. (By the way, his "you did it first, so you can't complain" argument implies that he believes that it DID happen. Although it is still a fallacious argument.)

Or is it an unwillingness to admit that civilized white europeans like us in this modern day and age can do it? That someone like ME could do it?

[Philistine]

{snip} who admires Hitler quite a bit (except for the racism part... go figure).

Yeah, that racism part (along with the associated attempted genocide) is pretty much a deal killer for most people....

--Philistine

[Tomas N]

What exactly is the point of holocaust denial? What need is filled by holding firmly to such a position?

Is it an unwillingness to admit that humans can commit genocide? But we do it all the time! The holocaust was but one of many such acts throughout history, many of which are well-documented.

Is it an unwillingness to admit that civilized humans can do it? But we do it all the time! As your own friend points out, just as the Apaches and Comanches tried to wipe out competing tribes, so did the Mexicans and then the Americans try to wipe them out. (By the way, his "you did it first, so you can't complain" argument implies that he believes that it DID happen. Although it is still a fallacious argument.)

Or is it an unwillingness to admit that civilized white europeans like us in this modern day and age can do it? That someone like ME could do it?

Some people do it because by taking a minority opinion, they attract attention to themselves and therefore feel important.

Some people do it because there is a broader political point being made about how the world should be run today and how certain ethnic groups should be treated.

Some people do it because they truly believe that the Holocaust didn't happen, and they just want to speak their version of the truth.

I'm guessing that most folks who are holocaust deniers fall into category #2.
Tomas

[Mr Epee]

I've worked in the holocaust industry, so I can confirm that it did occur.

However, I strongly suspect that 6 Million number is not realistic. I would guess that the real number is somewhere around 4 million (of course that's not good either).

One thing that bothers me about holocaust memorials* is that they rarely make any effort to acknowledge/remedy the very real genocides that are occuring around the world today... or the very real situation of apartheid (term used by the UN) that exists in Israel.

Until they do, I can't help feeling that the message should be changed from "This must not happen again" to "This must not happen again - to us".

* My favorite being the empty library in Berlin.

[RITFencing]

Kind of like the Japanese position on Nuclear Weapons? The things in some history textbooks there are truly fascinating....

[TrainingDummy]

One thing that bothers me about holocaust memorials* is that they rarely make any effort to acknowledge/remedy the very real genocides that are occuring around the world today... or the very real situation of apartheid (term used by the UN) that exists in Israel.

Until they do, I can't help feeling that the message should be changed from "This must not happen again" to "This must not happen again - to us".

It's ironic that Israel has not officially acknowledged the Armenian massacre as a genocide, given the weight of the evidence and the fact that genocide pretty much led to its creation as a state. Political links with Turkey, however, put principal by the wayside. "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" -- Adolf Hitler.

It is true that rich people have a very disproportionate influence on politics, and a disproportionate number of Jews are wealthy compared to other ethnic groups. So to say that they have alot of power probably isn't wrong. However, to assume that they band together no matter what for some kind of "Jewish conspiracy" is nonsense. A Jew, like anyone else, may be willing to cross traditional ethnic lines when he or she feels that what he or she has been taught is wrong. Israel is an issue that Jews tend to agree on to some extent, but not nearly as much as the "conspiracy of international Jewry" folks would have you believe. Read Norman Finkelstein or read reports of B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights organization, if you believe in a conspiracy. Or... actually take the time to TALK to some Jews. Oh, wait, nevermind, they'll just deny everything.

[Mr Epee]

It's ironic that Israel has not officially acknowledged the Armenian massacre as a genocide, given the weight of the evidence and the fact that genocide pretty much led to its creation as a state. Political links with Turkey, however, put principal by the wayside. "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" -- Adolf Hitler.

It is true that rich people have a very disproportionate influence on politics, and a disproportionate number of Jews are wealthy compared to other ethnic groups. So to say that they have alot of power probably isn't wrong. However, to assume that they band together no matter what for some kind of "Jewish conspiracy" is nonsense. A Jew, like anyone else, may be willing to cross traditional ethnic lines when he or she feels that what he or she has been taught is wrong. Israel is an issue that Jews tend to agree on to some extent, but not nearly as much as the "conspiracy of international Jewry" folks would have you believe. Read Norman Finkelstein or read reports of B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights organization, if you believe in a conspiracy. Or... actually take the time to TALK to some Jews. Oh, wait, nevermind, they'll just deny everything.

What are you going on about?
You need to settle down.

I tend not to believe in conspiracy theories because the more complicated things become - the less likely they are to be sustainable.

[ReverseLunge]

How exactly do they come up with the numbers? Do they do a body count?

[Epee_Pox]

The numbers are an estimate, derived statistically with high level of confidence, based on comparisons of many sources of data. The numbers are pretty accurate.

The Nazis kept fairly good records of who was sent where. Comparisons of very accurate pre-war and post-war demographic records provide a very good source of data as well.

[needle]

The numbers are an estimate, derived statistically with high level of confidence, based on comparisons of many sources of data. The numbers are pretty accurate.

That they are. And they are also very scary. I read one of the statistical researches that listed estimates of pre-war and post-war Jewish population in Europe ... got me really depressed.

[seak]

note that the UN tends to be dominated by people who are not predisposed to siding with Israel. There are a lot more Arab nations (and African nations due to Israels unethical dealing with the Apartheid South African gov't) then there are Jewish countries. Due to block voting the UN tends to always (since 47) side against Israel. Israel remains the only country that cannot be elected to a seat on the Security Council and they only recently were admited to a regional block (Europe and others not the middle east the Arab countries wont let them in).

Also many Jews disagree with the way the Israeli gov't has handled many things. You actually find more disagreenment in Israel then in America. Finally large portions of the American Jewish community were behind the organizing of the Darfur rally that happened in DC to protest the genocide that is currently occuring there.

Jews are far from perfect, however after having studied the holocaust extensivly I will say the numbers are probably accurate (6 million Jews, 12 million total). And there are many members of the Jewish community who strongly feel that it is their duty to speak against genocide and discrimination everywhere even when they feel it is Israel doing the oppresing.

[oiuyt]

Some people do it because by taking a minority opinion, they attract attention to themselves and therefore feel important.

Or a related aspect -- they're part of the select few who "get it" and haven't been fooled, like the majority of the poor sheep.

People like feeling that they're in the "in" crowd and that they know more than the people around them.

-B

[Mr Epee]

Jews are far from perfect.

Whoa... careful out there on that limb. Let's try a few more.

Russians are far from perfect.
French people are far from perfect.
Canadians are far from perfect.
Americans are far from perfect.

I'm not sure that anyone insists on holding Jews to a higher standard than anyone else. I imagine that the UN would be reasonably concerned with any country who has such a violent history. It's very shortsighted to blame the Arab countries for giving Israel a bad name.

Despite the 6 million number being literally carved in stone around the world, some experts believe that the number is significantly lower... others believe it should be significantly higher. I happen to think it's lower, because it is human nature to exaggerate catastrophes and carnage - even with statistics and estimates.