when is off the strip, OFF THE STRIP

[NGFC]

Howdy folks, lately there much ado at some of our club tournaments about when you are considerded actually off the rear limit of the piste (ew, fancy french word). Might some of advanced fencing knowledge and the rules fill me in?

"... be kind to those you meet on your way up as your sure to meet them on your way down!"

[mrbiggs]

When both of your feet have entirely crossed the plane of the back line, you are off the strip. Unless a point was scored or halt was called before this happened, it is a touch against.

The side of the strip requires only one foot off, and it is not a hard halt. (points can still be scored on ripostes for the fencer still on the strip)


Also, just a heads up, I'm not really of "advanced" fencing knowledge.

[NGFC]

that's what i always thought (and was told) that there is some invisible vertical boundry. but recently i w as told that in fact if you consider the back of the strip a cliff that as one foot is already off the strip that if you simpy raise your fornt foot off the surface of the strip that you are in fact and at that ver moment considered off the strip. which kinda makes sense as this way there is potential for angle of view errors (which have changed the outcome of a bout or 2) . it seems that the cliff methon is the most easily judged. any takers?

[hpfencing]

You are of the rear end of the strip when both feet clear the back line. Your front foot could be in the air and back off the rear of the strip and you still be considered on the strip as the strip is in volume not perimeter.

The other issue is to consider the referee, you not off the stripp unless the referee sees that you are off the strip!

[bigdawg2121]

It's a plane. Which is also why if the back of the strip were a cliff and you were fencing on a properly constructed strip there is runoff space. The foot is on until it crosses the plane completely and no parts of it project over the strip.

[eac]

If it were the case that if you picked up the foot still on the strip (without bringing it behind the plane) it counted as a point, then you couldn't advance correctly back onto the strip (because when you advance you pick up your front foot first). You'd have to cross-step. Therefore, it only makes sense for it to be a plane that both feet have to cross.

[keropie]

Right, technically it's a plane, but practically the converse of hpfencing's argument is also true: you're off when the referee says you are. Some officials when they see neither foot on the strip (physically, i.e., one above it) and can't really tell where it is, simply say you're off. That's where the rumor came from.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by keropie

Right, technically it's a plane, but practically the converse of hpfencing's argument is also true: you're off when the referee says you are. Some officials when they see neither foot on the strip (physically, i.e., one above it) and can't really tell where it is, simply say you're off. That's where the rumor came from.

Well, yes, there are bad referees that will make all KINDS of calls. They don't belong in a discussion of what the rules state. There are referees that will call you off as soon as one foot leaves. There are referees that will call halt at that point, warn you that you've hit the rear limit, replace you a meter from the end and restart the bout (saw this at a tournament a couple of years ago -- same tournament where I had to correct a pool sheet that had a 6-5 bout on it (double touch at 4-4 in epee, followed by a single for the win)). Lots of outdated (meter warning, minute warning, etc.) or simply incorrect information floating around.

-B

[keropie]

Sure, but when the heel of the front foot is behind the end of the strip, and you lift your toe, it becomes a very subjective call in the mind of the official, and that's the standard a lot of officials give on the question of 'when are you off strip.'

[Dr. Pfleschbach]

The rule book is not very specific, it mentions crossing the boundary but doesn't say whether that means stepping out or merely crossing the plane. The way I see it called 99% of the time, the side boundary is not a plane - a fencer has to step down completely outside the line for there to be a loss-of-ground penalty or the touch annulled. A fleche is usually still good as long as the flecher lands the touch before his foot touches down outside the boundary. This may just be because it would be very difficult for the director to judge the exact moment a foot crosses the plane of the side boundaries due to the fact that the plane is horizontal to the director. At the back of the strip, however, if the back foot is completely off the strip, the fencer loses a point when the forward foot crosses the vertical plane, even if his front foot never touches the floor outside the boundary. It is very easy for the director to see the moment the foot crosses the plane because the boundary is perpendicular to the director.

[bigdawg2121]

A (singular) foot outside the horizontal boundary should not annul an attack if the attack was started before the foot crossed...only in cases where both feet cross the boundary before the touch arrives should there be annulment

[Dr. Pfleschbach]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

A (singular) foot outside the horizontal boundary should not annul an attack if the attack was started before the foot crossed...only in cases where both feet cross the boundary before the touch arrives should there be annulment

That may be the rule but it doesn't often get called that way. When fleching the attacker lands on one foot first. I don't recall seeing any directors taking the back foot into the calculation for a fleche.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Dr. Pfleschbach

That may be the rule but it doesn't often get called that way. When fleching the attacker lands on one foot first. I don't recall seeing any directors taking the back foot into the calculation for a fleche.

Bigdawg both correctly cites the rule AND states what actually happens in practice, in my experience. Again, this is a call that gets blown, but good referees will consistently call it correctly (the way BD2121 says).

If Fencer X fleches, his front foot lands outside of the strip, then his tip arrives, and his rear foot is still on the strip (in the volume of space above the strip) Fencer X has scored a touch. And it DOES often get called that way.

-B

[NGFC]

i think the rules be be revised to say that if one foot is off the strip( touching the ground behind the rear limit line) and the fencer then lifts his other foot physically off the surface of the strip, then the fencer is considered off the strip. if you think about it the rules say "off the strip" and having no feet touching th strip is off the strip to me!

A.Custer

[NGFC]

and why is that one foot off the side of the strip constitutes a halt but no when at the back of the strip with one foot off. fencing rules can be so nebulus!

A.Custer
“There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the Seventh Cavalry.”

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by NGFC

if you think about it the rules say "off the strip" and having no feet touching th strip is off the strip to me!

Look up. Say at that pretty picture to the right of the fencing.net logo at the top of your screen. How many feet does the fencer on the right have "on the strip" by your definition?

The strip is a 3-D (rectilinear) volume, not a 2-D rectangle.

-B

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Look up. Say at that pretty picture to the right of the fencing.net logo at the top of your screen. How many feet does the fencer on the right have "on the strip" by your definition?

Also, it would be very difficult to enforce. How is the referee going to see when the fencer's foot is an inch off the ground?



P.S. I hate to be a party pooper, but didn't Custer lose?

[bigdawg2121]

Originally Posted by NGFC

and why is that one foot off the side of the strip constitutes a halt but no when at the back of the strip with one foot off. fencing rules can be so nebulus!

A.Custer
“There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the Seventh Cavalry.”

Are you serious ?

[Dr. Pfleschbach]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Bigdawg both correctly cites the rule AND states what actually happens in practice, in my experience. Again, this is a call that gets blown, but good referees will consistently call it correctly (the way BD2121 says).

If Fencer X fleches, his front foot lands outside of the strip, then his tip arrives, and his rear foot is still on the strip (in the volume of space above the strip) Fencer X has scored a touch. And it DOES often get called that way.

-B

I agree that that is the rule, but in terms of how it is called, I guess we've been watching different directors. Consider this, if a right handed fencer fleches on the right hand side of the strip and steps out of bounds with their right foot, they would generally have to step at least 6" to 12" to the right of the boundary for the back foot to cross the plane shortly after the front foot. Yet the directors I see at NACs will annul the touch even if the front foot barely steps off. Now granted, according to the rules whatever the director says happened is what happened, but I just don't see the rule being applied as you say. I actually think that it would be almost impossible to determine the exact moment the back foot crossed the plane of the side boundary without using a line judge like they have in tennis.

[bigdawg2121]

Chances are the ref is judging that the action started after the foot left the strip, or is just not really doing their job. Seeing as how epee coaches are the first to come up and question you on the applications of a rule if possible, I somehow doubt that refs just plain missing it would go unnoticed.