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jokerjoe12 · 05-07-2006, 04:06 PM

does anyone have any reviews or opionions about the virginia academy of fencing? I am think about starting there but i would like some advice. and just so you know I am starting at the beginging and i have tried to email them like 10 time but they never respond. Thx

fencingmaster · 05-08-2006, 09:14 AM

You are welcome to come by the Chevy Chase Fencing Club, the only USFA club actually located in Washington, DC. See our web site for details at http://www.fencer.com or e-mail me directly.

Raymond Finkleman

CvilleFencer · 05-08-2006, 09:43 AM

If you are in DC area and you don't fence at either Old Town (foil) or DCFC (Epee) or Dominion (foil/epee/saber) than you are nuts IMHO.

VAF charges for everything (I would not be surprised if Alex installed pay toilets and coin slots on the water fountains!

), and charges way to much as far as I am concerned. You will get good coaching if you can pay for it, but believe me you will pay. Like up to $90 just to fence in a club ran tourney... They also have like a billion students all trying to get the attention of the coaches (by waiving large amounts of cash around I assume) which can really put some students off and makes it hard to build up a good rapor with your instructors.

Again, if you have the money to invest in it you will get some good training at VAF. But they are huge with many hundreds of members and it has always seemed to be a business first and a fencing club second to me. If you are willing to work hard and are a bit more self motivated I think that one of the other clubs I mentioned would be a better choice. VAF and DCFC probably have the best/most available hours out of all the clubs I mention. DCFC is just a LOT closer to you...

RITFencing · 05-08-2006, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

VAF charges for everything (I would not be surprised if Alex installed pay toilets and coin slots on the water fountains!

), and charges way to much as far as I am concerned. You will get good coaching if you can pay for it, but believe me you will pay. Like up to $90 just to fence in a club ran tourney... They also have like a billion students all trying to get the attention of the coaches (by waiving large amounts of cash around I assume) which can really put some students off and makes it hard to build up a good rapor with your instructors.

How do they get so many students with such exhorbitant prices? I'd really like to know how they hooked that up; I'm getting peanuts for giving some epee lessons at RFC.

darius · 05-08-2006, 10:46 AM

Quote:

How do they get so many students with such exhorbitant prices?

Location, location, location.

DC is pretty big, with some of the most affluent suburbs in the country, which would make for some decent fencing.

darius

CvilleFencer · 05-08-2006, 11:22 AM

Well, they have been around a long time and Alex is very good at making money. Also it seems that there is a certain percentage of the population that thinks if something is very expensive it is automatically better. And all of the coaches have accents. That boosts what you can charge by at least 20% in the minds of the drones! :-)

It also helps a lot that they have good coaches, a good program and they have turned out a lot of very good fencers, especially younger fencers which helps drive their core market. Also they have done a very good job in marketing the services that they offer with a good spin. And as mentioned their location certainly helps!

CvilleFencer · 05-08-2006, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fencingmaster

You are welcome to come by the Chevy Chase Fencing Club, the only USFA club actually located in Washington, DC. See our web site for details at http://www.fencer.com or e-mail me directly.

Raymond Finkleman

I don't know why, but I can never seem to remember you guys! In my mind I have it that James fences for DCFC and Anne and Max for BFC and I just can't get that out of my head, even though they have patches and everything! One of these days I hope to stop by and meet the rest of you folks. I don't make it up to DC much anymore though. Hope to change that next season.

fencingmaster · 05-08-2006, 01:48 PM

Yeah, Chevy Chase Fencing Club has James Kaull, #1 in Y14ME points, Annie Stephenson, Max Brumby, Katharine Holmes, all can hold their own against any adult epee fencers. CCFC just won 7 medals at the NYC Super RYC and had 3 others that just missed the top 8 by a touch.

Raymond Finkleman

Mergs · 05-08-2006, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

And all of the coaches have accents.

No I don't, unless I want to. You are over generalizing. About a lot of things.

ravlik · 05-08-2006, 06:06 PM

I think money is more valid concern of this thread ... Why you decided to confront directly just accents? or everything else mentioned by CvilleFencer is not so over generalized.

emoret · 05-08-2006, 06:21 PM

Something a little closer to 'fact':
The VAF coaches that produce youth/cadet NAC top 8 finishers all have accents. VAF also employs a multitude of other folks for their beginners and intermediate classes

Those coaches cost more per month than other, equally capable, coaches cost per year. These equivalent coaches can be found at Dominion (Allen Evans and Jill Feldman in McLean), Olde Town (Jun Liang-Smith in Olde Town Alexandria), or DCFC (Janusz Smolenski, Robert Suchorski, and Dariusz Gillman in Silver Spring MD). I'd speak to CCFC's coaching, but having never (knowingly) met the coach, all I can say is that they have some very strong fencers, as was mentioned earlier. The OTFG and DCFC coaches above all have accents. If you like that sort of thing, I'm sure Allen and Jill will be happy to scream at you in broken english.

Alex (head coach of VAF) has truly created a business of fencing. Many of the kids are dropped off at VAF as an after-school activity, and Fairfax County is, last I checked, one of the richest counties in the US. He charges an arm because people will pay it.

Alex has brought many people to the sport, locally. His staff has created a number of quality national competitors. Those competitors (or more correctly, their parents) have paid exhaustive amounts of money in order to receive that training. In my opinion, the same quality of training is available at other clubs at a much lower cost and with more personal attention. If you look over results long enough, you'll find there are just as many equally strong competitors from the other clubs as there are from VAF.

If I were you, I'd go here and get the info on all the clubs that have been mentioned (You'll find DCFC and CCFC near the bottom under neighbors). Contact/visit all all of them. Tell them you're thinking about getting into it and ask them when and how much their beginner's classes are. Do not sign up for anything on your first visit. Just hang out a while and see what the atmosphere is like.

Let us know what you decide

oiuyt · 05-08-2006, 06:53 PM

Aside from the issue of which option a new fencer should pick, option A which costs $X or option B, which is functionally equivalent, but costs $y ($X >> $Y), it might be interesting to discuss what Alex is doing at VAF that can/should be spread around more.

While making money is clearly not the only goal of fencing coaches, it is a reasonably important goal of most businesses. If nothing else, running a rediculously over-profitable (assuming that there is such a thing) fencing club would allow for one to better support other more accessible fencing opportunities (or other worthy causes) if one desires. Note here that many fencing clubs are not organized/operated as businesses, and many of the clubs that are fit into a lifestyle business category or are designed to be part-time/hobby businesses.

What does VAF do differently that allows for the high prices?

Is VAF overcharging or are the other nearby clubs selling themselves short?

How do each compare to other comparable establishments in similar industries, but outside of fencing? What other institutions are comparable?

-B

Repechage · 05-08-2006, 07:02 PM

I would second oiuyt's statement not to sign anything. If you sign a contract with VAF you are pretty much stuck with it as there is language preventing you from joining anywhere else and you must finish out your year. None of the other coaches in the area want to cross him, especially those who share general geographic origin with him.

He is not an especially good coach himself, from my observation, though because he has so many members at his club he is able to winnow the talented and hard-working into his competitive groups, and he tends to be a less-than-useful strip coach at national events.

That said, I know several people who belong to his club who are very nice indeed.

bigdawg2121 · 05-08-2006, 07:10 PM

I seem to recall that there is another club on the opposite side of the country which also charges an arm, two legs, and more choice parts of your torso to fence there. They also have mandatory contractual agreements. The owner/founder of that club admittedly started out as a relative "nobody" in fencing and also admittedly not that great of a coach. He gave a franchising seminar a few Summer Nationals ago and was paraphrased to have said something along the lines of:

'It doesn't matter if you have the best coaching or facilities; find the highest priced competitor and charge more. People will pay it b/c they like to believe that more money means more quality. Eventually you'll learn how to coach at the level you want to coach at (or you'll hire someone who can) and eventually your students will get results, then you can either justify your fees or charge more.'

oiuyt · 05-08-2006, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repechage

I would second oiuyt's statement not to sign anything.

WHA??!?!? Where did I say that? Not that I disagree with the sentiment that one should look around and figure out what's the best situation before entering into a long-term commitment. I think you mistook emoret for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

The owner/founder of that club admittedly started out as a relative "nobody" in fencing and also admittedly not that great of a coach.

I was at that seminar (which wasn't a franchising seminar, but a talk organized by the USFA with a panel of several different club operators/owners/managers about a variety of different methods of organizing club operations -- I'd love to see more of this type of discussion take place at Summer Nationals). Despite his self-deprecating tone in the anecdote, the club does have very good coaching.

Another club which has done a noteworthy job of turning significant profit while exposing fencing to a huge group of people as well as turned out at least some fencers with national results (some quite significant in that case).

-B

Mergs · 05-09-2006, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravlik

I think money is more valid concern of this thread ... Why you decided to confront directly just accents? or everything else mentioned by CvilleFencer is not so over generalized.

Money may be a concern, but I think you missed my point on the accent. Having taught at VAF on and off for several years and that Cville knows that, I took exception to his generalizations. As for his claim about paying up to $90 for a club run tourney, he's right. That is if you are dumb enough not to register early and pay the penalty! I've run across several tournaments in my former haunts that would cost nearly as much for the same reason! Alex is a businessman that runs a fencing business, and as has been noted, has also produced, or started, a number of sucessful fencers. He has 'fed' a number of very successful fencers to other programs around the area. There is a dicotomy between volume and quality. He has opted for volume.

Breathe on this one.

JokerJoe12, if you can, come by on Monday evenings around 8:30 and ask for me and I'll show you around and get you the answers to your questions.

CvilleFencer · 05-09-2006, 12:51 AM

Hey Mergs. I actually had no idea you were teaching up there. Sure, I have scene you strip coaching at events, and I new that you were/had coached, I just did not know you were one of the unsung (on the web page anyway, is Mason also Coaching?) VAF coaches. If you had mentioned it to me in the past sorry for spacing out on it. When I think VAF coaches, as Eric mentioned I tend to think Alex, Ilya and now Alexi.

I realized I had been unfair in my first post so in the second I thought I would try to be more clear in that VAF has turned out some very good fencers, especially at the younger levels and offered a lot of hours/options for members while trying to be funny, hence the accent comment. As to the validity of that comment, well... you are from Texas!

Seriously, no offense was intended. If I came off to strong I plead nicotine withdraws. Not smoking sounded like a good idea but I forgot that I have always been to stupid/stubborn to be a quiter!

occasionalfencer · 05-09-2006, 08:36 AM

If I came off to strong I plead nicotine withdraws. Not smoking sounded like a good idea but I forgot that I have always been to stupid/stubborn to be a quiter![/quote]

Don't think of it as "quitting" smoking, think of it as embracing fresh air!

Mergs · 05-09-2006, 09:05 AM

Cville,

No problem. There are a lot of coaches/instructors that come and go at VAF, it's the only way they can keep up the class schedule they have as well as supporting the half-dozen offsite places where they teach. As such, it is pretty hard to keep the website updated. And, yes Mason also teaches some classes there (mostly as a substitue when someone can't make it for what ever reason, like me when I'm out of town, which is happening alot in this new job).

As for the other, given our relative reputations, I feel that we need to be careful about responding to requests for information about clubs and coaches. It can be a two-edged weapon.

Hope the nicotine cessasion reaches culmination before we meet on strip again!

ravlik · 05-09-2006, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mergs

Alex is a businessman that runs a fencing business, and as has been noted, has also produced, or started, a number of sucessful fencers. He has 'fed' a number of very successful fencers to other programs around the area. There is a dicotomy between volume and quality. He has opted for volume.

Breathe on this one.

I see inconsistency here. Volume should be cheap, as China made stuff, quality should be expensive as German equipment. So we have a business genius that either supplies quality volume at justified price, or has some good market strategy (as a free coffee in the morning at day care, as if I have time to utilize it), or enjoying a lack of competitors may be because…

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repechage

None of the other coaches in the area want to cross him, especially those who share general geographic origin with him. .

Interesting, none of numerous club members stands to defend it, except one coach, who than decided to hold back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mergs

As for the other, given our relative reputations, I feel that we need to be careful about responding to requests for information about clubs and coaches. It can be a two-edged weapon.

You sure are a really good soldier.