Brooklyn Fencing Center

[Moliere]

This is a bit silly, but I figured I’d ask anyway. I am relatively new to fencing, been fencing for about 5 months now, and I am interested in joining the Brooklyn Fencing Center in NY. I am really not thinking about competing anytime soon, but I want to get better at fencing. Anyway, I am very comfortable using the French grip, although I am ready to try something new. I am not interested in pistol grips, at least not yet. I am however, very interested in using the LP gardere grip. If I were to fit my foil with a gardere grip, would I be able to fence at this club, or any other club for that matter? I understand that the Gardere grip is illegal in competitions. I wouldn’t pommel, and second, I have small hands to begin with, and the better grip would be less strenuous on my hand, which is why I am interested in using it in the first place. To me it seems ideal for my needs. Any advice would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

[Adler]

For the love of god don't do it! Gardere grips are absolutely hideous they destroy finger control. I haven't met a person who uses one who hasn't got serious flaws in their technique.
If I were you I would either stick with a French or get an ordinary pistol grip.

[Moliere]

I appreciate the reply and the advice, although I made up my mind and already acquired an LP Gardere grip. I have read the forums here and in the armoury regarding the controversy behind them and the consensus in regards to their illegality in competitions. What I am more interested in finding out however, is whether I would be able to use this in clubs without getting flamed by people and/or prevented from fencing others at clubs.

[epeemike81]

For the love of god don't do it! Gardere grips are absolutely hideous they destroy finger control. I haven't met a person who uses one who hasn't got serious flaws in their technique.
If I were you I would either stick with a French or get an ordinary pistol grip.

I agree almost entirely with this post. Given that you're a foilist, you should switch to a pistol grip immediately.

-m

[Adler]

What I am more interested in finding out however, is whether I would be able to use this in clubs without getting flamed by people and/or prevented from fencing others at clubs.

I doubt you would be flamed or prevented from fencing. People will probably suggest that you should change but in the long run its entirely your choice.

[Adler]

I agree almost entirely with this post. Given that you're a foilist, you should switch to a pistol grip immediately.

-m

As he says he's relatively new to fencing it would be to his advantage to work on technique using a French to get the feel of the blade and how to control it properly. Once he's more experienced he should be able to transfer over to a pistol grip fairly easily.

[HDG]

What you have not made clear is what you find desirable about a Gardere and why you believe that you would prefer it to other non-French grips.

[Moliere]

Thanks so much for the reply guys. As Adler and my coach at school has suggested, I should stick to the French grip for a while longer until I am comfortable with point control and handling of the blade, thus making the transition to other grips easier. The only reason why I want to start using the LP Gardere soon, is because of its ressemblance to the French, with the added bonus of the prongs for a stronger and more ergonomical grip. I have a small frame and small hands, and although I am very athletic and quite strong, my grip tends to weaken after a while and my hand "cramps" up on me, giving me almost no grip whatsoever; wherein the slighest beat almost knocks the blade off my hand. This is of course, after a good hour or so of continuous fencing. I also mountain bike, especifically downhill, and that sport is very rough on the hands and wrist, which is why I also need something to take away some of the stress before I switch to a pistol grip in the future. I know it is inevitable, but I just want to delay it for a bit longer.

[HDG]

I would recommend a Belgian grip in that case.

[oiuyt]

I have a small frame and small hands, and although I am very athletic and quite strong, my grip tends to weaken after a while and my hand "cramps" up on me, giving me almost no grip whatsoever;

I suggest that it's quite possible that you're putting way too much effort into gripping currently. If your hand is cramping up it's likely the case that you're holding the weapon too tightly. Pure grip strength isn't a key. Your hand should be mostly relaxed almost all of the time.

Even aside from the issues that keeping one's hand tensed caused re: cramping, discomfort, muscle fatigue, etc., it also tends to lead to poor (large, sloppy) form as blade manipulation is now down at the wrist or elbow level rather than in the fingers (clamp the grip to your palm and it becomes impossible to properly manipulate the weapon with your fingers).

It's very common to see people -- even those that learned proper technique with a French grip -- clamp down on pistol grips, leading to the problems in the two paragraphs above. Make sure that you're using the orthopedic grip properly before dismissing the entire class as useless.

-B

[sabregrrrl]

I suggest that it's quite possible that you're putting way too much effort into gripping currently. If your hand is cramping up it's likely the case that you're holding the weapon too tightly. Pure grip strength isn't a key. Your hand should be mostly relaxed almost all of the time.

Even aside from the issues that keeping one's hand tensed caused re: cramping, discomfort, muscle fatigue, etc., it also tends to lead to poor (large, sloppy) form as blade manipulation is now down at the wrist or elbow level rather than in the fingers (clamp the grip to your palm and it becomes impossible to properly manipulate the weapon with your fingers).
-B

This happened to me when I first started fencing. I gripped the weapon too tightly. Also, I needed to develop the appropriate muscles in my hand in order to be able to manipulate the blade with my fingers. You're going to have to develop those muscles sometime.....I would recommend doing it now, rather than getting your hand used to one grip, then switching over to another one and starting from the beginning again.

[Moliere]

I totally agree with everything said in the last two posts. For the first two months I can honestly say I was gripping the blade way too tight. Although I am no expert now, I have checked again and again with my coach whether I am gripping the foil properly or not, and as it turns out, I am. As I said, my hand doesn't really tire until after about an hour or so of continous fencing- drills and bouts- without any real breaks. After a 10 minute break, all goes back to normal. I noticed the difference in fatigue when I began correcting my grip, my hand wouldn't tire as fast, and I also made more accurate hits and smaller motions in general. You are both right. I also believe that the muscles in my hands were not developed for this kind of thing, so I practice with my blade at least an hour everyday, aside from the school club to which I attend 3 days a week for several hours. I intend on sticking to the frenchie for a while, while also learning to properly hold the ortho without gripping it like a vice. I also started using a tennis ball-like thingy to strenghten my hand and fingers, and it also seems to be working pretty well. Once again, I appreciate the feedback and thoughtful advice.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Imagining holding the french grip like you would hold a bar of soap, or small bird.

[Moliere]

Haha! I'll keep that in mind, thanks

[CanDan]

I know how the wrists feel after being on a bike. I do trials and that's just as bad on the hands as dh. I use a belgian grip and I'm fine. Also, if you can last 1 hour of non stop fencing, that's fantastic but it's not important because you will always have a break before you reach 5 min in fencing.

As for the brooklyn club, I'm sure Rolo wouldn't mind.

[Moliere]

Yeah, true, if it were just bouts, they wouldn't last that long, I was just using that as an example. There are however, some people that just like to strong arm way too much, and although their technique is hideous, one has to adapt and overcome. Mainly, when people do that, I do wish that I had an ortho grip to have a little more leverage and grip. A martingale helps too however. That is great, as long as people don't mind me using a gardere at a club, I am cool with it, I do plan on switching to a pistol, perhaps belgian or the LP Golubitsky at some point in the future. I rather like LP products.

[CanDan]

Footwork is your friend, if someone is too strong for you, use footwork to get the advantage. Also, I know lots of people will tell you not to, but if you learn how to flick, you can avoid blade totally and opens up their target when they are searching for a parry.

[remise]

I use a French Grip in both foil and epee. Speaking just for myself, I found that when I switched to a pistol grip in foil, I'd tend to 'clench' the grip and end up with the mother of all cramps. One of my children ended up getting tendonitis from clenching a pistol grip.

Another of my kids found their point control went straight to H&!! after a while with pistol grips. This child will not fence with anything other than a pistol grip, however, when the point control falters, a short stint back with the French Grip tends to put it right. Everyone is different and you will have to decide for yourself what is best for you.

[Moliere]

Aye, once again, I agree with the last posts. I want to re-iterate my thanks to all those who responded and took the time to give some advice. I am still using the French, and since this post started I have noticed improvement in my blade control, footwork, and general tactics. The advice from everyone here has been very useful.

[seven6ty]

I have a small frame and small hands, and although I am very athletic and quite strong, my grip tends to weaken after a while and my hand "cramps" up on me, giving me almost no grip whatsoever; wherein the slighest beat almost knocks the blade off my hand.

Yeah, I'd agree with whoever posted earlier about learning to loosen up your grip a lot. After 8 years of fencing I still did this horribly. I used to think that as soon as I loosened my grip or stance, that someone would notice and attack me right away. After taking 4 years off and starting back up again, the first thing I learned was how to loosen up properly. It's completely possible to have a very lax and loose grip/stance, so long as you are doing it properly, and still be able to hit on a moment's notice.

Keep your entire arm relatively loose, but in the correct position. Once you are confident enough that you are doing this correctly, it will be much easier to keep your arm and hand loose. I've found this is paramount in preventing me from getting sore, tired and fatigued early on in a tournament, which I've found to be my number one adversary in any large tournament I've entered.

So yeah, if you're getting sore and cramped, it's most likely because you have a death grip on your weapon and you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss pistol grips. They can offer you just as much, if not a more secure grip on your weapon, plus more control, than a traditional french grip.