Athletic standards in fencing

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

After looking at the results from recent div 1 NACs, I am perplexed.

Sometimes (often enough to be notable ) you see cadet-junior fencers making top 32 at div 1 events. Mind you, these fencers are of good tactical and technical caliber, but is it not rather ridiculous that they can even hold their own with fully grown adult fencers?

I'll make a comparison, and its that HS football teams never get on the field with adult NFL teams. Just athletically, they are in two totally different leagues. If a Highschool team was to play against an NFL team, the quarterback would not even be able to get the ball in the air before he had the life knocked out of him.

In fencing though, its not uncommon to see relatively immature athletes holding their own against adult fencers. Does this mean that the athletic standards for our adult Div 1 fencers are below what they should be?

Interesting.

[Poulet]

Fencing isn't a measure of pure athletic ability. That will only get you so far... Tactics, fine motor control and timing are definitely crucial as well [and I'm sure there are about 500 other things I could have listed here that I didn't].

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Poulet

Fencing isn't a measure of pure athletic ability. That will only get you so far... Tactics, fine motor control and timing are definitely crucial as well [and I'm sure there are about 500 other things I could have listed here that I didn't].

For what its worth, football, basketball and a myriad of other sports are not just measures of athleticism, but do require some advanced skills and tactics, like timing, fine control, feel, ect.

[darius]

NFL players get paid to play. Therefore, they have the resources to maintain peak physical condition, and go through the grueling two-a-days. If we had a pro league that paid a living wage, I can guarantee you the quality of the adult athletes would start increasing.

Since contact is penalized in fencing, the advantage of size and hitting power is nonexistent. Thus, younger fencers can compete against the older ones without having their lights knocked out.

So then it becomes a question of training; who's more likely to have time to train every day, a high schooler who's out of school by 3, or a dude with a wife, kids, and a 9-5?

darius

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by darius

NFL players get paid to play. Therefore, they have the resources to maintain peak physical condition, and go through the grueling two-a-days. If we had a pro league that paid a living wage, I can guarantee you the quality of the adult athletes would start increasing.

Since contact is penalized in fencing, the advantage of size and hitting power is nonexistent. Thus, younger fencers can compete against the older ones without having their lights knocked out.

So then it becomes a question of training; who's more likely to have time to train every day, a high schooler who's out of school by 3, or a dude with a wife, kids, and a 9-5?

darius

Good point darius.

The question was not whether or not senior fencers have time to train their athletic capabilities, but as to whether or not it is something that is needed.

[RoninX]

Additionally (one of Pulet's 500 things) in a one on one situation a smart competitor can neutralize his opponents advantages if they know what they are. Also, as an individual sport you only have to get one youth who can compete against a more mature athlete.

In football, basketball etc it is much tougher to find 22 or even 5 guys who can compete at that level and play as a team.

You see younger competitors compete reasonably (sometimes very) well in many individual sports: golf, tennis, swimming etc...

[Durando]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

In fencing though, its not uncommon to see relatively immature athletes holding their own against adult fencers. Does this mean that the athletic standards for our adult Div 1 fencers are below what they should be?

It means that kids have the time and energy to learn fencing, do or anything else, obsessively.

It's why I love training with our juniors. Take them apart with a particular tactic, explain it to them, and they go out and work up a solution on their own. Freaking little monsters.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

I'll make a comparison, and its that HS football teams never get on the field with adult NFL teams.

The NFL players are professional athletes. In fencing in the USA, some of the youth go to school and fence. And that's pretty much it. Some of the adults have that kind of focus, but fencing isn't earning them money. A lot of them will cut back on their training to try to get ahead in their careers. Or they'll decide to get married or have kids or whatever.

Football is also a sport that rewards different aspects of athleticism than fencing does. Consider other sports, like tennis. You see quite a few young players beating or holding their own with the older athletes. What age do you expect to see peak athletic performance? Or, for you personally, when do you expect to reach the peak of your competitive fencing "career"? In your mid-30s?

Finally, at least in foil, some of the younger fencers have much less target area than most of the adults. On the old timing, foilists could compensate with a flick to the back of smaller opponents. That's much harder to pull off on the new timing, adding a bit of bias to thin or small fencers (including some younger fencers).

[rcmatthews]

part of it is also that fencing peak times skew a lot younger than in other sports. Most people are done by what, 25? It is sort of like gymnastics in that respect.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

part of it is also that fencing peak times skew a lot younger than in other sports. Most people are done by what, 25? It is sort of like gymnastics in that respect.

My how this has changed. When I started twenty years ago, the peak age that was bandied about was thirty-six.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

part of it is also that fencing peak times skew a lot younger than in other sports. Most people are done by what, 25? It is sort of like gymnastics in that respect.

This is a matter of economics, not performance.
Without economic considerations, fencers can easily be at the top of their game into their 30s.

I don't think seeing juniors and cadets making top-32 at NACs tells you anything about the athleticism of the adults--particularly since many of the "adults" competing at div 1 events are barely in their 20s.
The comparison between fencing and football is a faulty one that overlooks the primary and decisive elements of fencing (as Poulet notes).
Only at a very low level are "raw" physical elements like strength and speed going to determine the outcome of a bout.
Without going into the question of how high a level everyone in the top-32 of a NAC might be (many of them are not always "high" in the "big picture" of fencing), it's important to recognize the emotional and cognitive factors that separate the champion level from the filler.
I would imagine a kid like DFP could outrun or outlift an old man like Kolobkov. Since fencing isn't a measure of these things, it would be a mistake (obviously) to assume that DFP could then take Kolobkov apart on the strip.

Here's another way to look at it. Take those same pro football players and, instead of throwing a high-school team on the field, put the best fencers in the world together on the field. The fencers would get the sh-it beaten out of them. Now put those football players on a fencing strip--the reverse will happen. Do the football players suddenly become less athletic? Of course not. Different sports have different needs.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Jason

I would imagine a kid like DFP could outrun or outlift an old man like Kolobkov. Since fencing isn't a measure of these things, it would be a mistake (obviously) to assume that DFP could then take Kolobkov apart on the strip.

I actually do doubt that. Have you seen the size of his calves dude? Even though pavel is an "old man", he can probably squat way more than me.

[chefencer]

I think we're also looking at this from an American perspective with our endemic "shrinkage" from juniors to seniors - grow up, get a job, fence twice a week. Competitive fencing is only like gymnastics over here - Sanzo, Vezalli, et al, aren't teenagers.

It is the near infinite elements composing every bout that allow such hugely disparate people to compete against each other without "leveling the playing field" - gender, age and even fitness are important, but not necessarily overwhelmingly so, because they can be accomodated into the tactics of the combatants. I would propose that fencing must be one of the most (d)emocratic sports on the planet (let's leave out all the bowling-esque 'sports')... On a recreational level that's perfect, but it hurts us internationally, at present. I've a feeling things are going to get interesting for the 'Old World' in China '08 and U.K. '12.

[rcmatthews]

Originally Posted by Jason

This is a matter of economics, not performance.
Without economic considerations, fencers can easily be at the top of their game into their 30s.

But its not a perfect world, and the economic considerations do matter. I also think a lot of people tend to get burned out on fencing (I don't see why). So this forces an early retirement age for a lot of people. Now I think there is still a place for old guys *cough* Westbrook, and usually the champions aren't the younger ones.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I'm serious guys, imagine Reggie Bush with a foil/epee/sabre in hand, combine that with the technical/tactical skills of someone on the top 16 of a Senior Mens points list. That would be practically unstoppable.

[RoninX]

Reggie Bush is an athletic freak, no doubt. He could probably have played any professional sport he chose to focus on. That said, he may have terrible fine motor skills. I have seen some great athletes fail competely at fencing.

He is probably more athletic that 99.99999 percent of of people (1 in a million ).

[mlr2fence]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

But its not a perfect world, and the economic considerations do matter. I also think a lot of people tend to get burned out on fencing (I don't see why). So this forces an early retirement age for a lot of people. Now I think there is still a place for old guys *cough* Westbrook, and usually the champions aren't the younger ones.

Burnout: could this be a result of the kids being 'pushed' by their parents wanting them to be superstars? Does a Y10 really need to be fencing seriously 5-6 days a week?

[jrgunn]

All very interesting observations. However, I would like to take a different approach.
Consider that the U.S. has benefited enormously from the fall of the Iron Curtain, as truly professional coaches (who made their living fencing in the USSR) immigrated to the U.S. I like to make the comparison to the brain-drain of rocket scientists at the end of WWII.
These coaches have only been working here for the last 10-15 years; in that time, they have trained a cadre of young fencers who are truly world class.
It seems to me that this is one of the major reasons these younger fencers are beating the ever lovin' stuffin' out of us older folks, who are either relatively new to the sport or learned it originally 20 years ago when the training was....well, not very good.
Superior training at a younger age that yields superior understanding of tactics and strategy, plus the vigor of youth.
(Sigh....sometimes, middle age just sucks).

[rcmatthews]

Originally Posted by mlr2fence

Burnout: could this be a result of the kids being 'pushed' by their parents wanting them to be superstars? Does a Y10 really need to be fencing seriously 5-6 days a week?

I am sure it does, but since I love to fence, I don't see how you could ever get tired of it. I wish my parents had forced me into fencing at a young age.

[mlr2fence]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

I am sure it does, but since I love to fence, I don't see how you could ever get tired of it. I wish my parents had forced me into fencing at a young age.

You might feel different had you been 'forced', with other activities reduced/eliminated. (Its the 'forbidden' fruit thats desireable)
Its a narrow line parents walk in knowing when to push and when to back off.