Drills for intermediate students

[wingnut]

We have a group of students who have 'graduated' from our basic instruction, and this is my first time teaching the intermediate group. I'm trying to get some ideas from people on what would be good things to work on for intermediate students. So far they know the basics (advance, retreat, lunge, fleche, beat attacks...)

What would be some good drills for students to help them advance in their foil skills???

Thanks!

[Mr Epee]

Vinnie Bradford has a book that may be right up your alley.

TAKE FOIL GROUPS TO THE COMPETITIVE LEVEL

It can be purchased through American Fencing.

To be honest, I do not own this book, and have never used it, but I have flipped through it a few times and it appears to provide good information in a pretty solid fashion.

All the best

[Chafunkta]

I don't really have many specific drills, but there are some things you can definitely work on.

In the way of footwork:

Redoubles
Advance-Lunge
Ballestra
Crossovers
Distance control exercises (and plenty of them)

In the way of bladework:

Disengages, Doubles, Coupes
Parry (4. 6. 7. 8) and Ripostes to both high lines and low lines
Compound Ripostes (a riposte with a disengage)
1,2 attacks (or as I always call it, a beat in four, then a disengage under opponents parry in four)

I'm sure there will be some others with more specific (or just more in general) drills.

[keropie]

Just as a terminology question/debate starter, two things:

Originally Posted by Chafunkta

Compound Ripostes (a riposte with a disengage)

The disengage merely makes it indirect. It's very possible to have a simple (non compound) indirect riposte, which is generally more common than a compound riposte (feint-deceive during riposte).

Originally Posted by Chafunkta

1,2 attacks (or as I always call it, a beat in four, then a disengage under opponents parry in four)

Beat-disengage is named exactly that, beat-disengage. One-two is an attack made by an indirect feint (disengage feint) and disengage deceive, hence the 1,2.

Other things I'd add to the list of stuff to teach:

Counterdisengage
Fleche
The different parries of 4,6,7,8 (lateral, circular, semicircular, diagonal)
Attacks into different lines
The concepts of offense, defense, and counteroffense
Tactical pris-de-fer (beat attack into preparation, as opposed to literal pris-de-fer where you control the blade to the target)
Possibly literal pris-de-fer
Concepts of first and second intention, with some example of both in each of offensive, defensive, and counteroffensive

Some of this might be more into your advanced class (that depends on where you put the line), but are good things for any fencer who plans to move into competitive fencing to at least be exposed to.

HTH

[eac]

Having done literally thousands of bladework drills at my former club, I think bladework drills are overrated. Frequently, they practice and ingrain movements that are too sedentary, slow, immobile, and impractical to be used in actual fencing, and one must unlearn many of the things learned in them to improve.

Better is a four-pronged approach to improvement: 1) footwork drills (HARD ones, and LOTS of them), 2) practice bouts, 3) individual lessons, and 4) tournaments (lots of them). Footwork drills don't really make you practice bad technique, and lessons introduce you to correct technique. You have to have enough people to give enough lessons, however, which isn't always possible. At least one club I know of follows this formula to great international success.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

To be honest, I do not own this book, and have never used it, but I have flipped through it a few times and it appears to provide good information in a pretty solid fashion.

Nor have I, but I can vouch for her experience and knowhow. I coached this level for Bradford long, long ago when, I suspect, she was formulating what would become the contents of this book. I remember setting up problem situations and letting students figure them out. (Wish I could be more specific). As other posters have pointed out, you probably want to focus on integrating movement and bladework skills, with an emphasis on the former.

[Teme]

Maybe it's discepancy in basic intructions, but we don't consider graduates from basic course as intermediates, but beginners. before the course they're uninitiated laypersons, during the course they're prospects. It's not that we promote elitism, or anything, we just make it clear that being able to tell the point from the grip does not yet a fencer make.

In theory, after the course they do footwork and basic technique in pairs, and bout a lot. In due time they grasp what they are training for, and then we have an intermediate course/workshop/training. Then they get to compete for the individual lessons.

This, of course, is designed for adults, and usually breaks down somewhere along the line. Hmmm, maybe it's time to re-think the process...

[knave]

Originally Posted by eac

Having done literally thousands of bladework drills at my former club, I think bladework drills are overrated. Frequently, they practice and ingrain movements that are too sedentary, slow, immobile, and impractical to be used in actual fencing, and one must unlearn many of the things learned in them to improve.

Isn't that the real trick, to teach bladework in such a way that includes realistic footwork?

Certainly when you first introduce some piece of bladework, you need to do it stationary. But once the students have been introduced, they can be drilled over the same piece of bladework in more complicated situations (prepatory footwork/bladework, more challenging distance, uncertain targets, etc.).

I wouldn't say that bladework is not worth drilling, but that you need to think a lot about how you're structuring the drills to make sure you're not teaching static fencers who have no concept of proper distance for X bladework.

[Adler]

Personally i would try and lead on from what they have learnt on the beginers course in a logical order e.g,

Course 1 (foil)
En Garde
Advance
Retreat
Lunge
Direct attack with lunge.
Recovery
Guards Quarte, Sixte, Octave, Septieme
Parries both lateral and circular with direct riposte


Course 2
Double advance with rhythm
Double retreat
Step and Lunge
Indirect attack
engagements in the highline
engaged attacks to highline
change of engagement.
Parries with indirect ripostes

Course 3
Use of footwork as a preperation
Crossover Backwards
Crossover forwards
Balestra
Simple compound attacks
Lateral Beats in the highline
Circular Beats
Change Beats
Beat attacks
Beat Feint attacks
Compound ripostes.

I would tend to avoid teaching the Fleche untill the fencers have a decent footwork base. In an ideal world I would spend a lessons time on each topic.

[knave]

I guess another thing to think about is who is your corse geared for? Competitors? Recreational fencers? Errol Flynn? I assume--since that seems to be what everyone else in the thread is talking about--that we're sticking with foil here.

Competitors need a lot more concentration on movement, tactics, bouting, a precise execution but relatively few pieces of bladework (when was the last time a 4 to 8 transfer was really necessary in foil?). They need to be comfortable and consistent with the simple, efficient moves necessary to score touches.

Recreational fencers are more there for a diversion or a hobby. Teach them more and more bladework. Then make them epeeists where the bladework can be useful. They also need a fair bit of bouting, but if you keep up new material, they won't need as much as the competitive types.

Errol Flynn--well just give them a foil and a spiral staircase and stand back.

Also, how long a course are you thinking.

If I recall correctly, when I started the breakdown was something like this.

Intro
On guard (6), advance, retreat, lunge, advance-lunge, forward crossover, backwards crossover, direct parries 4,6,7,&8, maybe feint-deceives.

Intermediate
Ballestra, patinado, skip-lunge, gain-lunge, basic engagement, multiple feint-deceives, counter-offense

The intro course I teach as a PE
On guard (6), advance, retreat, lunge, advance lunge, parries 4,6,7,&8, PiL, beats, bouting, ettiquette, a little bit of tactics. I generally focus a bit on distance/movement and try and get the students to bouting fairly soon.

The intro course at my current club (students go through at least twice)
On guard, advance, retreat, lunge, advance lunge, ballestra, slide, long-slide, forward & backward crossovers, parries 1,2,4,6,7,8,&9, deceives, PiL, fleches, bouting, strip self-defense

Intermediate course
Lateral (angling) footwork, thrown points, pris-de-fer beats, basic engagement, some other stuff that eludes me this early in the morning.

[Bryn Ralph]

I recommend the work of Dr. Wm Gaugler entitled The Science of Fencing revised edition; exercises and sample lessons in all three weapons. Also, Epee Fencing by I. Vass and Fencing and the Master by L. Szabo offers suggestions for group and individual drills.