Foil parry question

[rudd]

If you hit your oppenets guard you basically parry yourself. The situation I'm wondering about is this.

I do a feint attack an on the disengage I tap my opponents guard, but my attach is sucessfull.

At the same time my opponent counter attacks. Both lights come on. Is this:

Attack is parried, reposte is touche, remise out of time,
Attack, malpare or simply
Attack, counterattack

Thanks

[Black Jeebus]

Depends on the director, but generally the best course of action with a disengage is to NEVER TOUCH YOUR OPPONENTS WEAPON! After all the whole point of a disengage is to keep your opponent from parrying you. So my question is this:

Are you disengaging after your opponent begins to parry or are you just disengaging to disengage. The most common reason I see what you describe happening is because fencer A is just disengaging cause he/she learned a new attack, and they usually click fencer B's blade cause they're changing lines (blindly... that is without regard to the actions/inaction of fencer B) into a line fencer B already occupies.

And to answer your question a little more it depends on the ref. Some people might just say beat attack (from you) lands, if your opponent didn't appear to be trying to parry at all.

And others would say attack (from you), is no, parry riposte (from your opponent) arrives, and then remise.

[u r the spoon]

I agree, it will depend on the director AND the action. If you "tap" the bell as you mentioned, I would wager to guess Attack-counterattack--your touch. As I read it, there is a difference between a tap and a beat (or maybe that's just my personal opinion).

In my experience (in women's foil, at circuits), few foil directors call a beat to the bell a parry, but some do and I have used it to my advantage before. This is even more true in regional and local tournaments. At least in the Southeast, almost no one is going to call a tap to the bell a parry for the other fencer.

[forethought]

If you hit your oppenets guard you basically parry yourself. The situation I'm wondering about is this.

I do a feint attack an on the disengage I tap my opponents guard, but my attach is sucessfull.

At the same time my opponent counter attacks. Both lights come on. Is this:

Attack is parried, reposte is touche, remise out of time,
Attack, malpare or simply
Attack, counterattack

Thanks

Did your tip hit the bellguard, or did the blade? If it was the tip, if your opponent started their counterattack before your remise, then I would say 'Attack, parry, riposte arrives before the remise'

However, if your remise before they start their counterattack, or if it was simply your blade slapping their guard on the conclusion of your attack, then I'd say 'Attack, counterattack; attack arrives'.

I would not give you a beat attack, as beats to the forte, in foil, are usually very insufficient to deflect the blade.

[keropie]

I would not give you a beat attack, as beats to the forte, in foil, are usually very insufficient to deflect the blade.

Well, to the OP, it's all a matter of opinion on the part of the official. He really has little to no guidance from the rules on how to call this in foil (unlike saber). The beat does not have to deflect the blade to be a beat attack (the beat doesn't gain any ROW anyhow, just the attack does... the beat was cause he was bored or something, but nothing having to do w/ ROW), but the blade contact that occured was either incidental (attack, counterattack) or controlled by the 'defender' (attack, riposte, remise). Most of the time I've seen the situation occur, if the 'defender' immediately began his 'riposte' after (or possibly even before) blade contact, he would be awarded the riposte. If it was attack, blade contact, attack finished, riposte started, then most would award the attack (which is pretty common sense, eh?). But I've seen calls with an immediate 'riposte' given to the original attack, so it just seems to vary from ref to ref.

[KD5MDK]

Beats even to the forte can deflect the blade sufficiently in foil. However, if the tip landed on the guard, I would say "Attack is initially no", and then complete the phrase as if they had missed (ie, remise, counterattack, etc.). If you try to hit someone and don't (as landing on the guard means), your attack fails.

[knave]

Then there are refs who call:

Fencer A attacks.
There is a click.
Fencer B is now reposting.

Not necessarily correct, but I've seen referees call this way, even when the call makes little sense.

[mrbiggs]

In practical terms, most refs won't see or won't call the action. I've had a parry called because my blade hit my opponent's bellguard only once, and I thought it was iffy at the time.

[Black Jeebus]

Unfortunately it comes down to the Ref's opinion of whether it is a beat or a parry. But that's the stuff we have to put up with when fencing the greatest weapon in the world!