What makes a good lesson?

[dramamine]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately as next year I will be graduating and able to move to a city where there is a lot stronger fencing. One of my difficulties in choosing a place is although I am not a bad fencer by any stretch I don't have a good grasp of what the difference between a lesson that "feels good" and a lesson that makes you better really is.

I mean, without naming anyone there is one specifc coach in an area I am thinking of going to that has you do a lot of very fast simple actions reacting to very simple cues and changing situations, but there is no real tactical thinking involved. After a lesson with this coach I feel outstanding, my hand is sore in all the right places and my legs are fried, yet the lesson is short in duration so the level technically is quite high. Other coaches have perhaps less physically challenging lessons but pay more attention to strategy.

What according to you makes a good lesson? I'm guessing most will say it depends on the fencer but what do you consider universal things that are always good about a lesson? Can a fencer take lessons that only focus on technical proficiency and speed and get all the strategy they need by fencing other strong fencers and just talking about tactics with their coach?

[keropie]

Shockingly enough, it depends on the fencer. So if you have a strong tactical mind and can observe and synthesize your own tactics, then yeah. If not, probably not. Both types of lessons are very valuable, and as long as I could, I took lessons from two different coaches each week.

[veeco]

I remember reading somewhere there are several types of lessons:

- The assault lesson
- The technical lesson
- The tactical lesson

The descriptions below may be a little off as I am putting this back together from memory.

the assault lesson is a lesson that is designed to be given on practices before tournaments. It is a usually a very loosely defined concept, where the coach will run a set of actions quite fast. It is designed to make the fencer feel good about themselves and their fencing, so the actions done are usually quite simple. The coach focuses on tempo, distance, and point control, and doesn't introduce any new concepts. Sometimes, at a very high level, the coach will actually try and recreate a specific style from a particular opponent to put the fencer in the right mindset for their next bout.

The technical lesson is used to introduce a new concept. The fencer will usually feel clumsy during and after this lesson. The focus of this lesson is on the correct execution of the new action, so the pace will be a little slower, and there will be a little more discussion between the coach and the student as they are working on perfecting the action.

The tactical lesson usually starts from a very simple action, and runs through the different set of possibilities that stem from that simple action. For example, the coach will start with a simple counter six, and the student will have to respond to that. Then the coach will follow up with another action, usually without telling the student, and keep on doing it until the student finds a response. Sometimes the coach may drop in a different cue, or a different tempo, to throw the student off and make them adapt. This type of lesson is supposed to create the neural pathways necessary to react "instinctively" to the different cues.

A good coach can give all types of lessons equally well, and knows when to give which type of lesson.

[Kiwifencer]

Veeco sums it up effectively, and of course what type of lesson that is required depends on whereabouts you as a fencer are in your development and training cycle - it is no use giving a technical lesson in a week before an important tournament that you have been training for.
But don't forget that some tournaments/competitions are there for training as well - depending on what you goals are and where the training/learning/competition phase falls...

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by dramamine

Can a fencer take lessons that only focus on technical proficiency and speed and get all the strategy they need by fencing other strong fencers and just talking about tactics with their coach?

Some fencers do very well with this type of lesson....which is good, because this is the only type of lesson that some coaches can teach.

You seem to be putting a lot of responsiblity on the coach to give you the "right" lesson for your needs, without first thinking of what your needs are as a fencer. Definately a big mistake.

Many athletes (in many sports) have more than one coach in their career. As the athlete grows into his or her sport, the needs of the athlete change. Some coaches can accomodate that change, and some can't. Think about what you need right now, and go to the coach that can fit that need.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by dramamine

....I don't have a good grasp of what the difference between a lesson that "feels good" and a lesson that makes you better really is.

Although you ask an excellent question, I think you really wanted to ask a different one. I guess I understand your concern without sharing it. Having a good grasp of what makes for a good lesson is less important than knowing your weaknesses and what you want your fencing to become.

Originally Posted by Allan Evans

....You seem to be putting a lot of responsiblity on the coach to give you the "right" lesson for your needs, without first thinking of what your needs are as a fencer. Definately a big mistake.

"Responsibility," is exactly the right word. Look for a partner, not a guru. If, however, you're just beginning fencing you need someone with solid enough technique to get you going without screwing you up. (Yours truly introduced a current high-level American fencer to the sport, although I make no claim for my teaching other than I didn't allow him to develop any crippling habits.)

After you have a basic level of technique (it sounds like you do) and after you can list what you want to know and why, then you can go looking for a coach in the way you describe.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by dramamine

I mean, without naming anyone there is one specifc coach in an area I am thinking of going to that has you do a lot of very fast simple actions reacting to very simple cues and changing situations, but there is no real tactical thinking involved. After a lesson with this coach I feel outstanding, my hand is sore in all the right places and my legs are fried, yet the lesson is short in duration so the level technically is quite high.

hmm.. sounds a lot like my second coach..

[Redblade]

I always like it when the coach recognizes my greatness and pays me afterward for the opportunity just to be near me. That's a good fencing lesson.

[oso97]

And there is another consideration as well - the need for an athlete to take different types of lessons and for the coach to be able to present them with different scenarios.

A coach may choose to focus on technical lessons with lots of blocked actions early on in the season, working on a set of skills that come together. Then as the season progresses, integrate more tactical lessons with serial and random actions, both coach-initiated and student-initiated. As the student is reaching a peak of the season, lessons may be almost entirely tactical, except for brief interludes of error correction. Tournament warmup lessons are another different type of lesson as well, focusing on mental and physical stimulation.

So a different lesson may be required at different times.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Everyone has been spot on about different kinds of lessons, different kinds of needs, etc etc.

On the other hand, you may be overthinking it- there really is some level where, if it "feels right", you can probably just go with that.

My college coach has developed a very good sense of what i need right before and during competitions, and on the most basic level, that's pretty much the most important thing he can offer me. after working with him in those senarios, it "feels right". It may not be the best lesson I could get anywhere in the world, but I can tell when it's beneficial, and how much it's beneficial.

Much differently, when I'm not at school and am getting lessons at Prise, after a lesson, every single part of my fencing game feels better. No matter what I've just worked on, even the things that weren't even kind of covered feel better. The bouts that I fence immediatly after a lesson feel better, the bouts I fence a week after the lesson feel better.


If lessons from several different coaches all "feel right", that what they're teaching you is helping your game, that you get along with the coach and the club's atmosphere, that after lessons you feel like you're getting better, then it will be difficult to make a "wrong" choice.

Of course, some coaches like to be the only person to work with a student, and so if you plan on taking lessons with more than one coach at a time, it's worth discussing it with each coach. (Some coaches don't really care, it's just useful for them to know....)


So, by all means, overthink/overanalyze away. But you may already know the answer....

[KD5MDK]

My problem is none of the sabre fencers are interested in bouting on lesson nights recently, so I've been unable to integrate my lessons into actual bouts.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

My problem is none of the sabre fencers are interested in bouting on lesson nights recently, so I've been unable to integrate my lessons into actual bouts.

Is that a coach led dynamic? It seems to me that the point of lessons is so that one can use them in bouts.... If I consistently, without excuse, decided to avoid bouting anywhere that I fence.........

let's just say that maybe the first time I was told to get off my ass might be polite....

[KD5MDK]

It's more an "end of semester" others are budy/ everybody comes on Tuesday-Wednesday-Thursday dynamic, whereas lessons are on Monday, thing.

[dramamine]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Some fencers do very well with this type of lesson....which is good, because this is the only type of lesson that some coaches can teach.

You seem to be putting a lot of responsiblity on the coach to give you the "right" lesson for your needs, without first thinking of what your needs are as a fencer. Definately a big mistake.

Many athletes (in many sports) have more than one coach in their career. As the athlete grows into his or her sport, the needs of the athlete change. Some coaches can accomodate that change, and some can't. Think about what you need right now, and go to the coach that can fit that need.

I have been fencing for a while and have done OK competitively considering my training situation I think. I have never really done better than top 32 at a junior NAC so I am nothing special but I have a couple years left as a junior and I am still improving a lot. One of my problems is my coach is a professor so he doesn't get any time to travel to competitions to see me fence, and in the club all he gets to see of me fencing is beating the other fencers in my club rather badly. As such, I don't have anyone to really tell me why I lost in tournaments but myself and oftentimes when he asks me I feel like if I would have known what I was doing wrong I wouldn't have lost the damn bout.

So I guess one of my problems is not really knowing what I need from a coach. Since I don't get pushed in the club my idea was that if I just got lots of basic lessons and did a lot of footwork I would be good. I'm milking that for all it's worth right now and still improving from it, but I know I'm going to need a coach pretty soon who travels with me and pushes me harder. My coach is a damn smart guy and he has got me thinking a lot more than I used to, and I have grown to appreciate the discussions we have about tactics and strategy. For this reason I am afraid that if I transfered to a coach who didn't work in the tactical part of a lesson I would lose the ability to be analytical in a fencing bout.

Ramble ramble ramble the answer is there is no answer so I will just stop talking.

I really like the input you guys are putting in, cool stuff. Please keep going if you can think of more.

[jtrsangel]

Your coach might benefit if you can video tape your bouts at competition. Then he could tailor your lessons from what he saw on the video. More importantly you can see what you did wrong and what you do right. I absolutly hate watching myself on video, but it's the best thing for my fencing I have found.

It's, of course easier, if you have someone to video you but if you are traveling to your competitions by yourself bring a tripod and set it up so that it angles down the strip on your front side for best view. It won't catch as much but it will help him and you more than nothing at all!

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by dramamine

So I guess one of my problems is not really knowing what I need from a coach. Since I don't get pushed in the club my idea was that if I just got lots of basic lessons and did a lot of footwork I would be good. I'm milking that for all it's worth right now and still improving from it, but I know I'm going to need a coach pretty soon who travels with me and pushes me harder.

(emphasis mine)

Doesn't it seem like you've started to answer the question you began the thread with?

You are moving to (or considering moving to) an area where there is a choice of coaching styles available to you. Why choose before you move? It wouldn't hurt to move to the new city and watch the coaches interact with their students before making a choice. Most fencers are too quick to adopt the "Coach du jour", without taking into qualities such as temperment, style of lessons, and so forth.

You probably do need someone with a tactical bent to their lessons. But you'd also be surprised at the technical flaws that probably still exist in your game. You need to find a coach that can balance those two competiting demands for your training. You're not going to be able to know who that is until you've been in an area for a while, watched some lessons, and talked to the fencers in the area.

[oiuyt]

I agree with Allen's post immediately above this one.

Additionally, just as a quick note...

"I have never really done better than top 32 at a junior NAC so I am nothing special but I have a couple years left as a junior and I am still improving a lot."

You've been making junior points and you still have a couple years of juniors left (so you're what, 17?). You're doing just fine.

If one of the considerations behind your move is going off to college, then there are very likely going to be significantly more important considerations behind where you go and who you work with than just what type of lessons are given.

-B

[jBirch]

To change the focus a mite...

What makes a good GROUP lesson?

I've been seeing swift and consistent improvement in my students (teenagers, mostly) that I give individual attention to but I'm not as impressed with the quality of my group lessons. We do "monkey-see, monkey-do" drills, pairs drills, individual drills (target practice and the like) and bouting and communal bout analysis, but the technical improvement just isn't getting there.

Any ideas? The local coaches seem to just affirm that there's nothing you can do about it except give private lessons (or semi-private with very small groups) and keep harping on the basics.

BTW, these are intemediate students who are competing in local tournaments and while they understand the gross movements, the refinements are kinda lost.

James.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by jBirch

To change the focus a mite...

What makes a good GROUP lesson?

Any ideas? The local coaches seem to just affirm that there's nothing you can do about it except give private lessons (or semi-private with very small groups) and keep harping on the basics.

James.

Honestly, I'm not sure there is much you can do.

I work primarily with kids in group classes, and most everything I organized is based on agility games/exercises, footwork and target exercises. This seems to work fairly well for their purposes.

Success is always defined by goals. It is highly unlikely to produce a significant champion through group classes, but if you can keep a group of kids entertained and constantly active for an hour+, then you are accomplishing quite a bit.

One of the problems with administrating precise technical development during group activities is that it slows things down and it's easy to have 10 kids standing around and 1 kid getting better.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by jBirch

To change the focus a mite...

Because it's always better to threadjack than to start a new thread.

I'm interested in responses to this question, but I'm afraid that some people will never look for your question buried down in this thread.