More fencing footage

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I thought his footwork when bouncing was okay, both knees bent more, more dynamic movement, but when doing regular advances and retreats it was too upright and just sort of dragging his feet around.

Bouncing all the time is usually too predictable. For the non-bouncing footwork he would do well to emulate his opponent's footwork, knees bent, short sharp pushes forwards and backwards, able to explode into a lunge with no change. Though Butcher didn't actually do that. He allowed Ballew to dictate a much closer distance than was wise for him for some reason.

After seeing his straight lunge a few times, slow and awkward with poor balance for recovery, I was shocked to see how explosive his advance-lunge was. I bet his opponent was also. When he does an advance with the intention of setting himself to lunge his post-advance pre-lunge guard position is very good and the resulting lunge is powerful and balanced, which is vital for both recovery afterwards and forward followups.

When he simply lunged without the preparatory advance he was in no position to execute it well. He was also in no position to retreat unexpectedly either. Note the many times he gets stuck in his retreat with his weight on his back leg, his front toe in the air and his front heel on the ground. No way to retreat *or* lunge from there. His opponent should have exploited that mercilessly.

What he needs to do is make *every* advance like the one he makes when he's about to lunge, and every retreat the same way.

A good footwork drill for that without a coach is to get someone who will stand off to the side and say advance, retreat and lunge randomly, so that you get used to making every advance and retreat as if it might be followed up with an explosive lunge.

gary hayenga

This advice is so good, and makes so much sense.

[Mr Epee]

And the plot thickens...

[Durando]

And the plot thickens...

By that I assume you mean "Payback is a biatch."

[RebelFencer]

He earned his "A" at a recent tournament with a LOT of help from the director, who happened to be DFP and who did everything short of black carding his opponent.

I actually was keeping time for that bout. Other than nullifying a questionable toe touch and give a yellow card for Vail not asking to change weapons during the break...there was no help.

[Mr Epee]

By that I assume you mean "Payback is a biatch."

yep...

[bigdawg2121]

Yellowcard for not asking to change weapons during the break? Huh...?

[RebelFencer]

Yeah, I am not a rated director so I don't know the obscure rules, but really that was the only sketchy thing about that bout.

[Fencergrl]

To review…
1) Numerous people on F-net have questioned the quality of fencing of the fencers shown in the footage.
2) One of the fencers earned his rating in a match that DFP directed.
3) At least one person has questioned whether it was impartial directing.
4) The time-keeper who admits to be unfamiliar with the rules, and a supporter of DFP, claims everything was done fairly.

Hmmm….

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Yellowcard for not asking to change weapons during the break? Huh...?

Yellow card for delaying the bout, because he unhooked during the break, and laid his weapon down. I could not assure that the weapon he hooked back up with was the same weapon, so I we had to test his weapon again. Delay of bout.

A couple of questionable floor touch calls (no excuses here, I call em as I see em).

The other controversial call was at the end. Bruce scored a touch, after the touch, it is noticed that butcher's body cord is unplugged at the back. The retaining clip for the reel was missing, so I annuled Bruces touch. Reference T.68.F in the rule book for my ruling.

[mrbiggs]

(a bunch of well-informed arguments)

Everything you said is true, but even the averages that are what an A usually can demonstrate in terms of skill vary widely from region to region, and even from year to year. I just don't think it's fair to watch a DE online and say that the fencers are not deserving of their classifications.

[ChrisBrasel]

I love you guys, here you are making assumptions and judging fencers when none of you know jack **** about any of the people involved.

Butcher there fences maybe once a month, and if he can beat someone that trains in New York to get his A, then I think he’s a pretty damn good fencer. DFP is pretty good too, he beat me in the gold metal bout. So go ahead with ratings inflation theories, just know your all pretty pathetic for criticizing all the parties involved. It’s pretty easy now sitting at your computers instead of when your on the strip with either Butcher or Ballew. Here was a time to help out a fellow fencer when he asked for it, but instead we got a dick parade. I applaud you all.

[tallntender]

Yeah, I am not a rated director so I don't know the obscure [underline mine] rules, but really that was the only sketchy thing about that bout.

Well, this is one the reasons why competitive fencers benefit from becoming qualified referees. In a tournment setting, fencer-directed bouts with rated referees are far preferable to those directed by "mere" fencers (regardless of their skills on the piste).

Unless you know the rules yourself, you won't know your rights.

[Mr Epee]

Delaying a bout during the break?
You've got to be kidding.

Unplugged? Missing retainer?
The referee is supposed to verify the existance and security of the retaining devise prior to the start of the bout. I seriously doubt that it "went missing" during the course of the bout.

This sounds like a fencing episode of Deliverance.

[bigdawg2121]

I love you guys, here you are making assumptions and judging fencers when none of you know jack **** about any of the people involved.

Butcher there fences maybe once a month, and if he can beat someone that trains in New York to get his A, then I think he’s a pretty damn good fencer. DFP is pretty good too, he beat me in the gold metal bout. So go ahead with ratings inflation theories, just know your all pretty pathetic for criticizing all the parties involved. It’s pretty easy now sitting at your computers instead of when your on the strip with either Butcher or Ballew. Here was a time to help out a fellow fencer when he asked for it, but instead we got a dick parade. I applaud you all.

Bet that feels better. I like how the only people that have been upset by the comments are generally people that fence with the mentioned fencers, and in this case also happen to have lost to them. I also like the assumption that there was no help offered, for all you know there could be an advice chat room open right now where everyone is offering constructive criticism.

Anyway...I think the delay of bout card was rather extraneous, and the later annulment for the body cord being unplugged was right if you didn't see when it came unplugged. Since you're definitley planning to start reffing though I'd suggest that these are little things you gotta start paying attention to, try to catch these things on the periphery if possible. Watch both fencers at the break b/c usually they're not laying weapons down in a big pile that would facilitate a quick change so you should be able to catch that. Really thought not too much room for complaint there that I can tell.

[Fechter1]

I love you guys, here you are making assumptions and judging fencers when none of you know jack **** about any of the people involved.

<hissy fit>

I applaud you all.

Hey, I was given a video to view, based on which I commented that Butcher did not fit my mental image of what an A fencer should look like. This is based on, among other things, efficiency of motion, awareness on the strip (distance mainly), tactical choices, execution, result. According to those, he did not look like an A to me. Personal opinion, you're free to disagree with it.

As for DFP, I never said he wasn't a good fencer, I merely tried to come up with some constructive criticism to help his fencing in the future.

And, BTW, if you know what to look for, you can see a LOT on a tape. As evidenced by the volume of advice and criticism presented in response.

[RebelFencer]

To review…
1) Numerous people on F-net have questioned the quality of fencing of the fencers shown in the footage.
2) One of the fencers earned his rating in a match that DFP directed.
3) At least one person has questioned whether it was impartial directing.
4) The time-keeper who admits to be unfamiliar with the rules, and a supporter of DFP, claims everything was done fairly.

Hmmm….

I'm familiar with most of the rules, but seeing as how I've never tried to become a rated director I assume that there are things I don't know. Would you rather I just claimed to know everything? Also..I am a supporter of DFP in this instance. But even he knows I would be the first to call him on it if he pulled any crap. Personally, I think this thread has gotten a bit out of control. Let's all try and tone it down a notch.

[Dev]

And, BTW, if you know what to look for, you can see a LOT on a tape. As evidenced by the volume of advice and criticism presented in response.

True, in principle. Even more so if you subscribe to the theory that any fencer is only as good as his worst possible day. In that case, I hope you haven't ever finished DFL.

Then again, fencers and games can vary wildly from tournament to tournament (or even bout to bout, given an inexperienced fencer). I can see the "unfairness" argument. Would you particularly appreciate it if someone watched just one bout of yours--in which you were having an off day, in the process of losing, and it wasn't your idea to be taped in the first place--and dismissed you as a scrub or an overinflated rating?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I don't know what everyone is getting worked up about, it was a frickin yellow card.

We were using tape on the back clip as a retaining device, and it was present at the start of the bout. Somewhere through the bout though, it came undone.

[bigdawg2121]

Dev he submittedd the tape. DFP no ones getting worked up, I'm prety sure that it was about as up and up as a bout gets in epee without a grounded strip. You certainly don't seem to be party to any huge SES epee conspiracies.

[Fencergrl]

Feedback… double-edged sword eh?
You’re a new ref…. why would you value feedback on your fencing and not your reffing?