More fencing footage

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Heres a thank you to anyone who watched the video, and thanks more to those who were nice enough to give constructive criticism.

[oiuyt]

In short, rankings rarely accurately reflect performance no matter how well they are deserved.

If this were true then classifications would be next to useless as a seeding mechanism.

MOST of the time classifications have a strong correlation with ability and ability has a strong correlation with expected (and actual) results.

-B

[RoninX]

Indeed. But I feel that some of these comments have been a little pejorative to DFP, though he has responded very graciously and was kind enough to show us this footage to begin with.

I dunno, hes gotten some pretty good feedback. I don't think anyone has been anymore insensitive than he expected!

[prototoast]

Socioeconomic situations suck ass.

Well, that's why you can go to a college that gives good financial aid, get burned out on fencing, get a degree and a good job, and 20 years later when you rediscover fencing, your children will be able to train in a decent environment.

[Dax]

I have one thing to say...

For all of you who are bashing Butcher, and even DFPs fencing... I guess we'll see how things turn out at sectionals. =)

[Mr Epee]

It's pretty unlikely to receive a men's athletic scholarship without having established a track record as a legitimate contender at the national level.

Too much talent - to few slots.

Keeping the grades up... is a much better plan.

[prototoast]

It's pretty unlikely to receive a men's athletic scholarship without having established a track record as a legitimate contender at the national level.

Too much talent - to few slots.

Keeping the grades up... is a much better plan.

I never said anything about getting an athletic scholarship--or even an academic scholarship. Need based financial aid rocks my world.

[RITFencing]

On the subject of colleges... see if the one you want to attend has any camps, and sign up for them. One of the fencers in Los Alamos has been attending camps at the air force academy, and while he is now on the cadet list, before he had any competition record to speak of he impressed the coach there just with his work ethic. He made it a point to work harder than anyone else, and Salem picked up on that. Good coaches don't just see established records, they see potential, and having a good relationship with a coach can go a long way.

[bigdawg2121]

Hah,ok Bigdawg, you fence Butcher someday and see how you like it.

Dude, I don't know him, I've never heard of him (possibly strike one b/c that means he probably hasn't had any national results worth mentioning) but that's not really the point. Ratings clearly don't tell you who's going to win, they are most definitely a rough indicator (in theory of how one will perform) but frankly if he fenced as well as he did in that video I'm pretty sure I'd like it just fine (assuming my epees still work, haven't touched them in several months).


On a more serious note, I'm sure you've read the rest of the thread. Note one thing:

1) None of the really serious epee fencers with results to back it up have disagreed with me, only the other guys from Tennessee and a regional fencer here and there.

2) I was really just taking a cheap jab at Grant b/c he's generally pretty good natured about these things (as he has been on this thread). Good job for him, and if you can't get to a serious epee center to train at least try to get around the section more. There's pretty strong (or at least different) epee in VA and parts of NC and if youo can make it even further into the mid-atlantic areas it gets progressively better until you get to NY. It's possible to get good even though you're not in the strongest area. Carlos did it, you can too.


PS...I'm sure we will see at sectionals, but since I have no vested interest in sectionals my part of that we will be seeing the results after they're posted.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

However, just as a side note, I did find these remarks about me on a different forum(accidentally). Kinda snide.

Well everyone has been wondering who is Ballew when I make a remark about him, and now is your chance to see him in all of his lack of glory.

I can't believe he posted that link on Fnet! He's so stupid. It's a shame he gets lucky and wins once in a while.

Nice one guys.

[Fencergrl]

It's okay DFP.... I'm sure your mother still thinks you're pretty special.

[Fencergrl]

However, just as a side note, I did find these remarks about me on a different forum

ROFLMAO....So DFP.
Are you trying to prove FG33’s point that you’re stupid???

If I read comments I didn't like that were posted in some obscure place, I wouldn’t copy and paste them so they reach a larger audience.

[Durando]

He made it a point to work harder than anyone else, and Salem picked up on that. Good coaches don't just see established records, they see potential, and having a good relationship with a coach can go a long way.

Kid must hustle if he impressed Salem. I was once his assistant coach at a camp. I'm still tired.

[mrbiggs]

If this were true then classifications would be next to useless as a seeding mechanism.

MOST of the time classifications have a strong correlation with ability and ability has a strong correlation with expected (and actual) results.

-B

I shouldn't have said performance, ratings are reflective of singular performances. What I meant is that they are not reflective of technique. You can't look at someone fencing and say what level they're fencing at. There's no such thing as an "A-level" advance or retreat. Many or most A fencers, of course, will be near a certain level, but ratings shouldn't be used to judge skill. Especially in epee, and especially comparing A to B.

[oiuyt]

I shouldn't have said performance, ratings are reflective of singular performances. What I meant is that they are not reflective of technique. You can't look at someone fencing and say what level they're fencing at. There's no such thing as an "A-level" advance or retreat. Many or most A fencers, of course, will be near a certain level, but ratings shouldn't be used to judge skill. Especially in epee, and especially comparing A to B.

There isn't an "A" advance or retreat, but there certainly is "A" level fencing. It's fencing that -- taken as a whole -- is comparable to the level demonstrated by typical A-classified fencers. Is this easy to determine from a short video clip? No, of course not.

Most C-classified fencers will fall into a certain range of skill. This range is below that typically found in B-classified fencers and above that typically displayed by D-classified fencers. Because the system is far from perfect and people perform to different levels at different times, these ranges overlap. Because there are large numbers of people that have a classification higher or lower than their actual skills should dictate there are additional imperfections. Classifications can ABSOLUTELY be used to judge skill. Not perfectly, it's a low-granularity and (at best) moderately-accurate guide, but skill level DOES have a high correlation with classification.

Are they the only method to judge skill? No, absolutely not. Are they a convenient mechanism? Yes. Are they the best method? No. An experienced observer given a reasonable sample can do a better job of estimating skill level. They do, however, allow for a method of roughly judging skill that's relatively unbiased, objective, and that doesn't require the highly-skilled observer.

I think what's confusing your argument is that you're assuming the the better fencer should always win. This is simply not true. Here's a non-sporting example. Let's say I have a standard 6-sided die. We plan to roll it to see who "wins". You win on any roll of 3 or better, I win on rolls of 1 or 2. You're more likely to win; you're "better" at this game than I am. Doesn't mean I can't win when we play. Doesn't even mean that I can't win 15 times out of 29.

Now let's put that into a classification system. For simplicity I'll have only two classes, "strong rollers" and "weak rollers". If the two rollers are the same class then they each get 3 numbers. If one is strong and the other weak then the strong roller gets 4 numbers and the weak roller gets two (as in our example above). This could, of course be extended out to other classifications. They could even be lettered. We can then play games of a series of rolls until one player or the other has won 5 (or 15) times.

Going back to what a specific classification means, there is definitely a level of skill typical of (say) B-level fencing. Many of the people at this level have B's. Most of the B's fence at this level. There are some people that fence above this level -- at an A level -- that still haven't been classified as such for whatever reason. There are people that fence considerably below this level that had one lucky day (lucky being defined as far from the norm in a positive direction, whether because they were fencing abnormally well, others were fencing abnormally poorly, random chance occurances combined into a fortuitous outcome, or any combination of the above) and are mis-classified as B fencers. The existance of this random noise in the system doesn't change the fact that overall the system does a fairly good job of ranking fencers into rough skill tranches.

We use classifications to judge skill in nearly every competition (pretty much all except those that are fenced with a single pool). That's the whole point of classifications-as-seeding-method. We don't use them to dictate who WILL win (or we'd just register, hand out medals, and head home with no need to get all hot and sweaty).

-B

[RITFencing]

Kid must hustle if he impressed Salem. I was once his assistant coach at a camp. I'm still tired.

Yeah, he's insanely dedicated and already an amazing athlete. Also just a really good kid.

[RebelFencer]

However, just as a side note, I did find these remarks about me on a different forum(accidentally). Kinda snide.





Nice one guys.

Don't let those scrubs get ya down.

(referring explicitly to the people he quoted...not directed to anyone in this thread)

[Twinkletoes]

I apreciate the effort of posting a fencing movie on the web
for people to dissect/enjoy.
Plus, it takes balls to show a bout of oneself fencing,
in all it's commentable glory.

And I liked the music touch, yes "destroy".. maybe got a tad repetitious
after about 5 mins.Needed one more cut to round it out.

One minor comment on the fencing: I found distance to be a problem
when I freeze-framed sections. You can find some instances of being well in attack-range but still having a bent arm.(both of you)

Great job,

Toes

[chiz]

However, just as a side note, I did find these remarks about me on a different forum(accidentally). Kinda snide.

Nice one guys.

D+

Rebel called it, leave the scrubs for the scrubs.

See you Sunday

chiz

[garyhayenga]

Some more or less random thoughts while viewing the clip...

Oy, you should really work on your footwork, specifically your front leg. Try to keep your front foot (and the knee) pointed at your oponent.

Also, bend your front leg more, let your quads absorb the shock of landing the foot (also try to do this when just walking or standing around). You'll thank yourself for that one in a few (maybe more) years. Otherwise, you're just asking for knee problems (osteoarthritis).
This would also help to give you more backwards mobility, meaning you could vary your defenses with more parries (in the clip you were doing ~90% counters/stophits).

Definite pattern to your footwork. Plus, it seems a bit too static to me... But that was just in the beginning.

In general, to be honest, I think your opponent in that bout had better footwork form than you did.

Seems like you won due to your point control, forward explosiveness, and that low/foot touch. Clip was a bit grainy to make any more detailed tactical analysis. Sorry.

I thought his footwork when bouncing was okay, both knees bent more, more dynamic movement, but when doing regular advances and retreats it was too upright and just sort of dragging his feet around.

Bouncing all the time is usually too predictable. For the non-bouncing footwork he would do well to emulate his opponent's footwork, knees bent, short sharp pushes forwards and backwards, able to explode into a lunge with no change. Though Butcher didn't actually do that. He allowed Ballew to dictate a much closer distance than was wise for him for some reason.

After seeing his straight lunge a few times, slow and awkward with poor balance for recovery, I was shocked to see how explosive his advance-lunge was. I bet his opponent was also. When he does an advance with the intention of setting himself to lunge his post-advance pre-lunge guard position is very good and the resulting lunge is powerful and balanced, which is vital for both recovery afterwards and forward followups.

When he simply lunged without the preparatory advance he was in no position to execute it well. He was also in no position to retreat unexpectedly either. Note the many times he gets stuck in his retreat with his weight on his back leg, his front toe in the air and his front heel on the ground. No way to retreat *or* lunge from there. His opponent should have exploited that mercilessly.

What he needs to do is make *every* advance like the one he makes when he's about to lunge, and every retreat the same way.

A good footwork drill for that without a coach is to get someone who will stand off to the side and say advance, retreat and lunge randomly, so that you get used to making every advance and retreat as if it might be followed up with an explosive lunge.

gary hayenga