Need a grip for hand recovery.

[Morion]

I've been using a Visconti grip for some time now and recently I somehow managed to injure my hand. I have found that after fencing the center finger on my right hand gets extremely stiff and somewhat painful to move. When the injury first happened I noticed my hand was very tender just below where the finger joins the hand so I am thinking I might have bruised a tendon or something like that. I appear to be aggravating whatever I did with the orthopedic grip. I just wired up a French grip for practice but I was wondering if there are any other types of grips that would not aggravate that part of my hand. I was considering a Spanish grip but I'm not sure about their legality for competition in case I decide to stay with them. Any input on either what grips would be good or what might have caused the injury would be appreciated. I would like to avoid repeating this experience.

[Mergs]

Sounds like you have the beginnings of what is known as 'trigger finger'. The tendon that controls the middle finger runs through the center of you palm. Repetative use can cause the sheath to calcify and cause the finger to lock, especially if you make a fist and then extend the fingers. As you have probably guessed, I have this condition and there really isn't much you can do about it, except limit the repetative action (in my case, using the computer mouse to do repetative clicking).

I recently asked a physical therapist about this and was told that surgery was an option, but that the sucess rate is very low. So I can't snap my fingers with my right hand. Oh well.

[Purple Fencer]

I had it in my hand as well...it only went away when I stopped fencing regularly after beginning the vending biz.

[RITFencing]

As far as tendon injuries, the ring finger can actually cause quite a few. This is because that finger has the least amount of strngth, yet a pistol grip puts equal tension on all of them. Try wrapping some medical tape around the first knuckle to prevent yourself from using your ring finger too much and see if that helps.

[Morion]

Well, I had a Dr.'s appointment last night and Mergs called it. I have the beginnings of "Trigger Finger". I gather that being diabetic makes me prone to such things.

Anyway I'm now back to searching for new types of grips to work with since giving up fencing is not an option. Sooooo, is a Spanish grip tournament legal? It looks like it would be easier on the hand than a pistol grip.

[Mergs]

Originally Posted by Morion

Well, I had a Dr.'s appointment last night and Mergs called it. I have the beginnings of "Trigger Finger". I gather that being diabetic makes me prone to such things.

Anyway I'm now back to searching for new types of grips to work with since giving up fencing is not an option. Sooooo, is a Spanish grip tournament legal? It looks like it would be easier on the hand than a pistol grip.

That's 'Dr. Mergs', thank you. And, no, a Spanish is not legal. Well, I guess it could be if it had a green card. But hey, illegal really doesn't mean illegal, now does it? Sorry, left turn at third base and into another thread.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by Mergs

And, no, a Spanish is not legal.

But a Spanish Offset is legal.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Mergs

And, no, a Spanish is not legal.\

Not technically legal, but I've seen one used in local tournaments. If it's the only thing you can fence with, it's better than nothing. Try other options first, though.

Oh, for the record, the fencer in question is very old (eighties, I beleive), so I think that he was probably in a similar situation of having some sort of hand injury.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by parrythis

But a Spanish Offset is legal.

Show me in person (or a good picture) and I'll tell you. Names are effectively meaningless.

[teamusaepee]

I was searching for hand speed drills and stumbled upon this thread...I have oh-so-much experience with this particular problem (it effectively ended my final Junior season). This is probably not in time to help Morion, but maybe it will be useful to someone else.

With much hindsight, I believe that my "trigger finger" was a combination of the Visconti grip and the flick that I had been working really hard on. After resting long enough to be rid of the inflammation I had caused, I found that the Russian style grip works best for me. It still has a pistol grip shape, but it is blocky so it doesn't press into that area just below the middle finger (like the Visconti grip does). For the first year I used it I held it with my fingertips instead of my whole hand. This kept space between that area on my hand and the grip. Now, however, I can hold it normally and have more strength on parries.

[Mergs]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Not technically legal, but I've seen one used in local tournaments.

The legallity of the grip is not 'technical', even if you've seen it used in local tournaments. This is a bianary thing; legal/not legal. The use of it in a local tournament doesn't change the legallity, only that someone didn't check/enforce the rules.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Show me in person (or a good picture) and I'll tell you. Names are effectively meaningless.

Spanish Offset as requested:

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by HDG

Spanish Offset as requested:

I believe that the modern Spanish offset (as pictured) is legal. But I would have to "kick it upstairs" in the FOC to be certain on how to rule on it if presented on on the strip.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[Mergs]

IMHO, no it isn't legal. Protrussions fix the hand in one position, while the elongated handle allows for it to be held in a second position, different than the first.

[Bran]

Originally Posted by Morion

I've been using a Visconti grip for some time now and recently I somehow managed to injure my hand. I have found that after fencing the center finger on my right hand gets extremely stiff and somewhat painful to move. When the injury first happened I noticed my hand was very tender just below where the finger joins the hand so I am thinking I might have bruised a tendon or something like that. I appear to be aggravating whatever I did with the orthopedic grip. I just wired up a French grip for practice but I was wondering if there are any other types of grips that would not aggravate that part of my hand. I was considering a Spanish grip but I'm not sure about their legality for competition in case I decide to stay with them. Any input on either what grips would be good or what might have caused the injury would be appreciated. I would like to avoid repeating this experience.

May I recommend Zivkovic grips? They were designed to avoid such problems.

http://www.zivkovic.com/

Visconti grips were introduced just after World War II and have not changed in design since. Of course, at that time they were considered revolutionary.

Zivkovic grips were designed mostly in the 90's with the idea of comfort for your hand as well as of doing away with the problems that fencing with a Visconti poses.

For example, the wings on each Zivkovic style cut off at the back of the palm before reaching the sensitive area on the inner part of the wrist, where veins deliver blood to your fingers.

Moreover, some of the Visconti horns curve back incredibly sharply, which can cut into your glove or the webbing between your thumb and index finger. Zivkovic's are straighter.

But what you are describing is a common injury for fencers. You are damaging the inner part of your wrist, which is why you feel stiffness and pain in the fingers (carpal tunnel).

We are fielding calls now about once every two weeks from people with similar injuries, most recently from someone who is currently searching for a wrist surgeon for her daughter -- all thanks to Visconti grips.

Have a look and if you need a recommendation, just let us know.

Bran

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Mergs

IMHO, no it isn't legal. Protrussions fix the hand in one position, while the elongated handle allows for it to be held in a second position, different than the first.

It's no different from any other pistol grip in that regard. The elongated handle is very thin and difficult to hold; the picture is slightly misleading in that regard.

For anyone who hasn't seen one, it's essentially a visconti with a thinner bottom prong.


Also, I was told by an FOC that that specific handle was legal. He's not an armorer, but I'd be surprised if he got it wrong.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Mergs

IMHO, no it isn't legal. Protrussions fix the hand in one position, while the elongated handle allows for it to be held in a second position, different than the first.

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

It's no different from any other pistol grip in that regard. The elongated handle is very thin and difficult to hold; the picture is slightly misleading in that regard.

For anyone who hasn't seen one, it's essentially a visconti with a thinner bottom prong.

Also, I was told by an FOC that that specific handle was legal. He's not an armorer, but I'd be surprised if he got it wrong.

I'm with Mr. Biggs on this one Mergs, the back of the handle is not significantly longer than a visconti, and is no longer than a Belgian.

[Mergs]

Would have to look at the handle in person to really see. Picture doesn't do justice.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Bran

May I recommend Zivkovic grips? They were designed to avoid such problems.

Dare I ask what medically trained expert designed these grips?

Visconti grips were introduced just after World War II and have not changed in design since. Of course, at that time they were considered revolutionary.

Firstly, I'm pretty sure that you don't have a source for that, but if you do, then please share. It would be interesting to know who has been keeping track of these things.

Secondly, I can think of many sporting and household implements upon which the grip has not changed significantly since the 1940's

Zivkovic grips were designed mostly in the 90's with the idea of comfort for your hand as well as of doing away with the problems that fencing with a Visconti poses.

Should we assume that you include superior feeling and control of the blade are to be classified amongst the "problems" that a Visconti styled grip creates.

For example, the wings on each Zivkovic style cut off at the back of the palm before reaching the sensitive area on the inner part of the wrist, where veins deliver blood to your fingers.

Highlight below to view top secret sciency stuff.
Clue: Veins don't deliver blood to your fingers... they return blood to the heart.

Moreover, some of the Visconti horns curve back incredibly sharply, which can cut into your glove or the webbing between your thumb and index finger. Zivkovic's are straighter.

Here you're claiming that there are variances between Visconti grips, and earlier you claimed that the design hadn't changed since WW II. Your grips are probably straighter than your stories.

But what you are describing is a common injury for fencers. You are damaging the inner part of your wrist, which is why you feel stiffness and pain in the fingers (carpal tunnel).

Excuse us, but common according to what research? Hmm? Is this based on your personal observation and diagnosis as a medical professional?

Please spare us snake-oil salesmanship. You have a product to push, and that's fine, but let it be a matter of personal tastes/preferences, and not based on silly scare tactics.