Fencing Consistently

[Fencergrl]

In tournaments and practice bouts I find I fence to the level of my opponent. This is a very annoying habit, as it means my bouts are very close.

Typically, I get a lead of 1-3 points ahead then my opponent catches up. I am assuming I’m backing off, thinking they won’t catch up. With better fencers I don’t do this, I either continue fencing hard or it’s close from the beginning.

I know this is not uncommon, as I see fencers do this all the time. I would like to hear from fencers that have broke the habit.

[Ordway]

I don't think that "backing off" is necessarily what's happening. I consider it more likely that you get a lead by doing something successfully; then your opponent figures it out; and you don't counter-adapt.

The essential things to work on, then, are 1. varying what you do to make it harder for your opponent to adapt to you; 2. analyzing the way the bout is developing; and 3. adapting to what your opponent is doing.

All of which is much easier said than done, of course. But it's much more likely to help if that's what you focus on, rather than "I'll just do the same thing... but with MORE EFFORT!!!!!" (BTDT, doesn't work.)

[Fencergrl]

I considered this as a possibility. It doesn't explain why after losing to lower ranked fencer I will beat a higher ranked fencer.

If this was the case, would a better fencer not figure it out sooner and start winning?

Case in point... I beat a couple people ranked around between 30 -50 in the country, (one I beat 5-1) but struggled against those ranked around 80 - 100.

I think it's to do with my mind set rather than not adapting.

[Valerio Versace]

It's hard to say what's the situation really like. It could be just a drop in concentration, or it could be as Ordway says. I think this can be recognized and solved only by someone who knows your fencing pretty well... like yourself, or your coach. After the bout, analyze it touch after touch, figuring out what went wrong each time you got hit / got an unwanted double / scored by luck. It will be easy to judge if the problem is adaption or concentration.
By the way... a lack of concentration usually hurts your ability to adapt too.

[Fencergrl]

By the way... a lack of concentration usually hurts your ability to adapt too.

Good point...

So we're really talking about the same thing here... The sequence goes as follows... I get a lead... I think... "I've got this match"... I relax a bit, knowing I have a 3 point lead in a 5 point bout.... this breaks my focus and I don't adapt or fence as well because I don't feel I "have to".

I NEVER do this with someone who's capable of handing me my butt on a platter, no matter how much of a lead I have. I take THEM seriously.

I will talk to my coaches. I also will try to train myself to stop doing this in practice. Any other ideas????

[jdoiv]

I find that when I get into this situation (more times than I care to think about), that if I focus on winning each point as if it's my only chance, I do better. I'll get ahead and think I have it under control and then, WHAM!, I lose the bout. If I just focus on winning each touch and ignore the score, I do much better (usualy winning by a comfortable margin to the people I should win against, and giving the guy I should and do lose against a real run for their money). Don't think about the score or the outcome, but focus on each touch.

[Valerio Versace]

Good point...

So we're really talking about the same thing here... The sequence goes as follows... I get a lead... I think... "I've got this match"... I relax a bit, knowing I have a 3 point lead in a 5 point bout.... this breaks my focus and I don't adapt or fence as well because I don't feel I "have to".

I NEVER do this with someone who's capable of handing me my butt on a platter, no matter how much of a lead I have. I take THEM seriously.

I will talk to my coaches. I also will stop doing this in practice. Any other ideas????

Well, it happens to me too sometimes... I think the best solution is still to analyze the bouts touch by touch, to determine what went wrong after the match. What you should do DURING the bout... I can't say: you must discuss that with your coach, and think for yourself. It may vary from "don't be hasty and wait for them to attack" to "don't let them try any first intention offensive action on you, 'cause you'll get maimed. Attack first".
That's hard to say without watching the bouts.

[Durando]

So we're really talking about the same thing here... The sequence goes as follows... I get a lead... I think... "I've got this match"... I relax a bit...

There's your problem right there. Make sure you time your training bouts and then try using the clock to your advantage. Feels good recording a 3-1 victory in my training log.

[leeleeroq]

I considered this as a possibility. It doesn't explain why after losing to lower ranked fencer I will beat a higher ranked fencer.

If this was the case, would a better fencer not figure it out sooner and start winning?

Case in point... I beat a couple people ranked around between 30 -50 in the country, (one I beat 5-1) but struggled against those ranked around 80 - 100.

I think it's to do with my mind set rather than not adapting.

From someone who is tackling this same problem, I can tell you what has helped me immensely. The solution, for me, stemmed from a simple observance by a fellow fencer at a competition...

During a recent NAC, it became apparent to me after my pools that I was doing exactly that- fencing well against the stronger fencers and fencing horribly against those rated lower than I. (I realized I did this in practice too.) A fencing acquaintance at that NAC asked me how I did in pools. I replied that I did well with the strong fencers, bad with others etc... She turned to me and said, "You don't respect your opponents." With that I realized that I was using so much focus and concentration on the higher rated fencers but when it came to the lower rated ones I replaced much of my focus and concentration (stupidly thinking I didn't need it) with careless aggressiveness and impatience therefore not paying attention so much to what they were doing. (In retrospect, I can also see when my better opponents do this to me and become careless!)

At any rate, I hope my 2 cents helps a bit. Like you said before, it may be your mind set but I also personally think that your mind set is what is making you not adapt.... Perhaps you can analyze your mind set during practices. Do you respect ALL your opponents?

[RITFencing]

I've noticed the same problem in myself and have asked a few succesful fencers and coaches what to do about it. Rob Madril recommended reading One Touch at a Time by Aladar Kogler, which I still have yet to pick up. I was also told, and I've found it very helpful, to not think much before a given touch or bout about the skill level of my opponent, and to go through a little routine like straightening out my weapon each touch, to give myself a moment to focus, especially when I feel the pressure mounting. The state of mind I try to mantain is that there isn't a person in front of me, there's a moving target, and I am going to fence my best on each touch, as if I were drilling.

Obviously tactics have to change against different opponents, but then it simply becomes a different set of motions for me to do, not an easier one. It's a lot like the state of mind I keep when I practice; no score is kept when doing drills and footwork but I still work hard and give it my absolute best.

Hope this helps, FG.

[Fencergrl]

Perhaps you can analyze your mind set during practices. Do you respect ALL your opponents?

I respect my opponents, I just take some more serious than others. I'm recognizing this is becoming a problem I want to correct.

This attitude stems partially from working with beginners, partly from being older than many of all my opponents.

When bouting beginners, I keep my movements simple. I often don't attack, just defend. I don't fence hard, as I don't want to discourage. I try to fence to whatever level they are fencing at.

I have noticed, the younger my opponent, the less I take them serious and see them as a threat, especially if I have more experience. This is a mistake.

[Fencergrl]

The state of mind I try to mantain is that there isn't a person in front of me, there's a moving target

This made me laugh... one of the drills I do to work on my point control (and kill time before class starts) is to hit the ropes hanging down in the gym. I start standing still, then progress into lunges, and step lunges. They move around a lot, so it’s good practice on hitting a moving target.

When I have trouble hitting the arm on my opponent, I picture their arms as 3” diameter ropes… it makes me laugh while fencing, and this relaxes me as well.

[RITFencing]

Good point...

So we're really talking about the same thing here... The sequence goes as follows... I get a lead... I think... "I've got this match"... I relax a bit, knowing I have a 3 point lead in a 5 point bout.... this breaks my focus and I don't adapt or fence as well because I don't feel I "have to".

I NEVER do this with someone who's capable of handing me my butt on a platter, no matter how much of a lead I have. I take THEM seriously.

I will talk to my coaches. I also will try to train myself to stop doing this in practice. Any other ideas????

Also, some advice here, in keeping with the title of that book: "One Touch at a Time." When you're fencing a bout, don't think about being ahead or behind or any of that, just fence each touch.* I tell my students "Go out and get one touch. Then get one more touch, and one more after that, and keep going. Don't think about how many you've gotten; the ref will tell you when you have enough."

I've found that this attitude has helped me deal with being ahead. Once upon a time, I had trouble closing out bouts. I would be up 4-2, or 14-10, or the like, needing one touch to my opponent's multiple, and my train of thought would switch to "ok, now what do I do to finish this up?"

This might sound reasonable, but it's screwed me up many times. When fencing a certain way gets me a commanding lead, why did I change it? It stands to reason that the same fencing that got me 14 touches would get me 15. Fixing what wasn't broken, unfortunately, helped me snatch defeat from the jaws of victory several times. Shifting my mindset, to just keep on fencing the same way, really helped me deal with that.

It sounds like the same thing might apply to your problem; if you start thinking that you can sit back on a lead, you're going to stop doing what got you that lead in the first place. Doesn't seem to make much sense, does it?

* A disclaimer applies: Sometimes you're down by a few touches and there are 7 seconds left. THEN you have to think about the score and the time remaining.

[Fencergrl]

Good advice, I might consider doing some "one-touch" bouts prior to tournaments to help me with that mind-set.

[RITFencing]

Good advice, I might consider doing some "one-touch" bouts prior to tournaments to help me with that mind-set.

That actually encourage the wrong mentality. I'd suggest fencing for a while without keeping score, just trying your hardest to get each touch. If you fence one touch, five touch, or however many touch bouts, there's still a score to keep. I'd not keep score and try not to even think about how many touches you're scoring compared to them. Just kind of live in the moment, so to speak.

[Poulet]

If you fence one touch, five touch, or however many touch bouts, there's still a score to keep.

Huh? It's kind of difficult to keep focused and trying your hardest without keeping score, for some. Even more difficult is making your opponent try his/her hardest when not keeping score. One-touch bouting seems to be a good idea for focusing on "each touch".

[RITFencing]

Huh? It's kind of difficult to keep focused and trying your hardest without keeping score, for some. Even more difficult is making your opponent try his/her hardest when not keeping score. One-touch bouting seems to be a good idea for focusing on "each touch".

I know it's hard to stay focussed on not keeping score; that's the whole point of the exercise. If it were easy, there wouldn't be questions and exercises, etc.

I would agree that one touch bouting is better than most stuff for focusing on an individual touch but the objective here is to forget the score while you're fencing. This becomes harder when you do any form of quantification; it's too easy to think "I won 7 bouts and lost 5." When you just don't keep score, it's that much easier not to think about it.

[dramamine]

After every point no matter who you fence just tell yourself to sit down, work hard, and get the next point. If you fence your best against everyone you won't have this problem.

[RITFencing]

After every point no matter who you fence just tell yourself to sit down, work hard, and get the next point. If you fence your best against everyone you won't have this problem.

That's absolutely right. The problem is forcing yourself to fence your best on each touch.

[Schiavona]

Often in a fencer's competitive career the fencer gets to the point where he/she realizes that their own mind is their greatest "roadblock" to success. This happened to me one season where my best results were in tournaments I fenced while sick. I had no idea how well I was actually doing(This was in the bygone days before DEs became the main format). All I could do was try to get the next touche. This left me with the knowlege that I think too much and made things way too complicated. So, just as the Sage says, "Live every day as if it was your last" try to fence as if every point was your last.