05-01-2006, 12:23 PM
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#41 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: CA area
Posts: 6,143
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Originally Posted by Jason My sources tell me that he recently left the life of a high-profile lawyer to pursue an acting career. | Good for him. Better than sucking the scum of the bottomest of the bottom feeders. And he has the looks and connections (from home in LA) for the job, too.
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05-01-2006, 01:23 PM
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#42 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris, France
Posts: 1,099
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Originally Posted by KD5MDK Heh. Bias from the referees? Or jury? Say it ain't so. | yeah but they certainly weren't biased for him.
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05-01-2006, 01:40 PM
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#43 | | Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,174
| Agreed. | |
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05-02-2006, 10:10 AM
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#44 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: May 2000 Location: The valley of the -hot- sun, NorCal
Posts: 3,184
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Originally Posted by druidfoil11 westbrook "aquired" a bronze medal....he didn't win it...anyone have any guesses as to how much the US paid for that? | Oh... Please. At least have the decency to back up that statement with facts if you are going to make such allegations. Otherwise it amounts to slander.
__________________ - Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
- To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial
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05-02-2006, 10:59 AM
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#45 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Bedstuy, Brooklyn
Posts: 1,541
| Speaking of guys like Cliff and Nick Bravin...
Ben Atkins dropped by my club yesterday. He's moving 3-4 blocks away.
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If a little dreaming is dangerous, the cure for it is not to dream less but to dream more, to dream all the time~Proust
~The purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people.
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05-02-2006, 12:12 PM
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#46 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: near Boston
Posts: 3,308
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Originally Posted by druidfoil11 westbrook "aquired" a bronze medal....he didn't win it...anyone have any guesses as to how much the US paid for that? | Was it only the Europeans who weren't happy about a black man doing well?
Peter Westbrook is one of the finest athletes I have ever seen. I am glad he went into fencing. Imagine what he could have accomplished in soccer or baseball.
I didn't really see him fence that much. I became active in time to see him win the National Championship in 1994 in Ft. Myers.
Am I correct in remembering that he really didn't use parry 5 that much? I remember him parrying most head cuts with a 4 parry.
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05-02-2006, 12:17 PM
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#47 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: near Boston
Posts: 3,308
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Originally Posted by fencerontheline Speaking of guys like Cliff and Nick Bravin...
Ben Atkins dropped by my club yesterday. He's moving 3-4 blocks away. | I remember him winning National Championship in Epee in 1993, after he had won it in Foil. I sat beside George Kolombatovich as he beat, I believe, Bob Marx. George kept saying "He still doesn't know how Ben is parrying him".
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11-16-2006, 05:13 PM
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#48 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 377
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Originally Posted by fencerbill  I think you have to consider duration of excellence as well as peak of performance. In my opinion Bayer, Kellner and others would have to exceed Michael Marx's years of excellence, as well as number of national championships, to be considered better. Michael was national champion in 1977, 1979, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1987 and 1990. | Without taking ANY credit away form Marx, I don't think we should continue to use this as a bar of accomplishment. Fencing is now a much more physical sport, and, while good training goes a long way, it's tough to compete with the best of them if you're not in your prime age. | |
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11-16-2006, 06:31 PM
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#49 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Michigan
Posts: 606
| People grow up. Cliff went to grad school and moved on with his life, maybe we all should live by his example...
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11-16-2006, 06:43 PM
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#50 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 367
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Originally Posted by noahz That's why he wrote "one of"...not "the" | "one of the greatest, if not the greatest male fencer in US History."
Reading comprehension! Woooo! | |
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11-16-2006, 06:59 PM
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#51 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 798
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Originally Posted by fencerbill Was it only the Europeans who weren't happy about a black man doing well?
Peter Westbrook is one of the finest athletes I have ever seen. I am glad he went into fencing. Imagine what he could have accomplished in soccer or baseball.
I didn't really see him fence that much. I became active in time to see him win the National Championship in 1994 in Ft. Myers.
Am I correct in remembering that he really didn't use parry 5 that much? I remember him parrying most head cuts with a 4 parry. | JIC, 1993 nationals was Florida, 1994 nationals was Utah. Dave Mandel won in 1993, Paul Friedberg won in 1994, Westbrook in 1995.
As far as great US Fencers go, Pete was great but what about Armatige? Had not titles than Pete, although no Olympic Medal. | |
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11-16-2006, 10:06 PM
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#52 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,074
| Why was this thread dragged out of its deserved slumber? A pointless exercise to pick "the best ever" over different weapons and eras. Not that this would ever stop us.
Peter clearly is a candidate for that title with, I think, 13 national championships in addition to the 1984 bronze and other results. In Nationals, he wasn't really working up a sweat until the final pools. Besides his own results, what he's accomplished with his foundation after his retirement from competitive fencing is absolutely unique and unprecedented in US fencing.
There are other candidates though: Albie Axelrod was the US's preceding Olympic medalist (Rome, 1960) and he did it with the entire Soviet bloc in attendance, and beating Christian D'Oriola (gold medalist in '52 and '56), as well as winning national championships 4 times - last time at age of 50 or so. In team competition against Soviets he won 3 bouts out of 4 - and Dan Bukantz won 4 out of 4. I don't know of any recent results to improve on that. If we're going to do a 'best ever' game, it might be good to open up the candidates to a broader number of years than the most recent generation.
Not to take anything away from the other outstanding fencers we've had (who of course have earned the right to retire whenever they want). It's just another unproveable exercise along the lines of "who was better, Jack Dempsey or Mike Tyson?"
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11-17-2006, 01:26 PM
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#53 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: CA area
Posts: 6,143
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Originally Posted by veeco Huum, Peter Westbrook anyone? Hard to top him. | I guess Jedi was referring to the greatest left-handed male caucasian foilist from the NY area in US history.
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11-19-2006, 10:44 AM
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#54 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,326
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Originally Posted by USA Why the sudden disappearence? Is it a conspiracy? | You don't have the necessary clearance to be told. | |
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11-19-2006, 03:43 PM
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#55 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 604
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Originally Posted by fencerbill Peter Westbrook is one of the finest athletes I have ever seen. I am glad he went into fencing. Imagine what he could have accomplished in soccer or baseball. | Very true. Could stand up to any pro athlete in the money sports. Quote:
Originally Posted by fencerbill Am I correct in remembering that he really didn't use parry 5 that much? I remember him parrying most head cuts with a 4 parry. | Yes you are correct about the parry four. Also had the ability to find time where there didn't appear to be any.
Proved his greatness by making the final 8 in the '89 WCs. To bad sabre wasn't electric during his prime. | |
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11-20-2006, 10:40 AM
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#56 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,074
| One exception to Peter not much using parry 5, Peter likes to set up second intention parry riposte by making a cut directly to the opponents guard or forte, provoking reflexive head cut ripostes - which he would sweep up in 5 for the counter riposte. Very fast, and would work time after time...
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"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, theory and practice are different."
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11-21-2006, 04:03 AM
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#57 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: A mushroom near the Mediterranean
Posts: 238
| I think the original thread was "what happened to Cliff Bayer:" Well, he hit on a friend of mine in a bar with tales of his fencing exploits. Maybe he is wondering the same thing...? | |
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