What happened to Cliff Bayer?

[noahz]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

maybe he should join the WCAP, then.

I think ArmyFencer told me that this program is not elgible to enlisted men, only officers.

[chefencer]

Originally Posted by Poulet
*cough*1984olympicsoviet/eastgerman/cubanboycott*cough*

Perhaps, but I'd say it would be difficult to find an American fencer who's had a larger impact on the perceived image of the sport in the American culture. He has been the face of American fencing for 20 years. WS has certainly been more successful, but their Adidas or planted firmly on his shoulders. I submit the general disappointment from the members of this forum on the lack of cultural capital gained from Athens (insert re-call threads here...ugh) as to the impact of those truly amazing ladies on the general public. I would say there's a feeling of missed opportunity. My expectations as to any attention being given to the phenomenal/outstanding/historic showing of the Cadet/Juniors this very month I leave to the readers imagination... '84 was watershed exactly b/c those countries that didn't attend heightened the jingo quotient/exposure of all the U.S. domestic athletes and allowed his still remarkable achievement at the time, to unprecedentedly gain the attention of this ADHD society for almost exactly a whole fencing phrase (the last touch).

Now we're trez L33T, but nobody knows it...

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by noahz

I think ArmyFencer told me that this program is not elgible to enlisted men, only officers.

well, how very elitist... that sucks.

-m

[Mergs]

Originally Posted by noahz

I think ArmyFencer told me that this program is not elgible to enlisted men, only officers.

BULLS**T! Do you HONESTLY believe that in today's environment, the military would OPENLY discriminate, by rank, in one of it's premiere programs that promotes participation in world class sports by its members? The least you could have done would have checked out the WCAP website. If you had, you would see that the vast majority of the participants are enlisted soldiers.

[Jedi Knight]

I don’t think anyone is trying to discount the impact that Peter Westbrook has had on American Fencing (i.e. PWF & ’84 Bronze medal). However when you compare head to head results, Cliff has to be considered one of the best male fencers.
Besides being 1-touch from the final @ the 2000 Olympics, he also won a couple of Senior World Cups in Europe that were part of the 2000 International Olympic Qualification. Cliff was a trailblazer in his own right, based off of how he showed that it was possible to beat the rest of the world, with our so-called “inferior” resources.

I am just glad I got a chance to observe his fencing during his dominance in the late 1990s.

[oso97]

I remember after the Sydney Olympics, Cliff came down to Louisana to participate in one of the Southwest Section Circuit events (Rose Condon Memorial in Shreveport) with a couple of other folks from New York. He was a first class act, very gracious and friendly. And the gold medal bout between him and Maged Shaker was awesome.

[chefencer]

Originally Posted by Jedi Knight

I don’t think anyone is trying to discount the impact that Peter Westbrook has had on American Fencing (i.e. PWF & ’84 Bronze medal). However when you compare head to head results, Cliff has to be considered one of the best male fencers.
Besides being 1-touch from the final @ the 2000 Olympics, he also won a couple of Senior World Cups in Europe that were part of the 2000 International Olympic Qualification. Cliff was a trailblazer in his own right, based off of how he showed that it was possible to beat the rest of the world, with our so-called “inferior” resources.

I am just glad I got a chance to observe his fencing during his dominance in the late 1990s.

I agree with your results assessment, but as I was out of fencing and a member of the great unfencing masses in the 90's I can only say my lack of awareness of his achievements at the time is just another bit of anecdotal evidence as to the traditional invisibility of our sport. Sad as it is to say...

[noahz]

Originally Posted by Mergs

BULLS**T! Do you HONESTLY believe that in today's environment, the military would OPENLY discriminate, by rank, in one of it's premiere programs that promotes participation in world class sports by its members? The least you could have done would have checked out the WCAP website. If you had, you would see that the vast majority of the participants are enlisted soldiers.

Like I said - I *think* he told me that. Ok, I should checked the site first...but that's what I remember him telling me.

[noahz]

Ok, I went to the WCAP web site to find out the facts. The process for getting accepted into the program is here:

Application Process Form(pdf)

However, this is different from the Air Force WCAP.

Anyway, what's published on these respective web site may be very different from the reality on the ground. And, I don't know if Rashann actually applied for the WCAP, so it may be moot.

Let's wait for an expert to show up and fill in the blanks, since we're just speculating here.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by Jedi Knight

I don’t think anyone is trying to discount the impact that Peter Westbrook has had on American Fencing (i.e. PWF & ’84 Bronze medal). However when you compare head to head results, Cliff has to be considered one of the best male fencers.

No beef on Cliff being one of the best. He still isn't the best, though. Comparing weapons between each other is difficult, and I'll give you that he might be the best male foil fencer in the US in a long time, but not I wouldn't give him the overall title.

Besides being 1-touch from the final @ the 2000 Olympics,

This is not true. He did lose by one touch against arguably the best fencer at the time, and eventual winner that year, but that doesn't mean he would have made it all the way to the final anyway after that.

he also won a couple of Senior World Cups in Europe that were part of the 2000 International Olympic Qualification.

Yes, but Peter Westbrook made top 8 in a world championship. Bayer never did. Bayer might have been more consistent, but he also had more resources than Westbrook had at the time. And Westbrook was ready for the big events that mattered.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by veeco

This is not true. He did lose by one touch against arguably the best fencer at the time, and eventual winner that year, but that doesn't mean he would have made it all the way to the final anyway after that.

Finals in this context referring to the L8, not the L2. Losing 14015 in the L16 he was 1 touch from an L8 (finals) result.

-B

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Finals in this context referring to the L8, not the L2. Losing 14015 in the L16 he was 1 touch from an L8 (finals) result.

-B

Actually... NO

Quarter-finals (L8), Semi-finals (L4) and Final (L2) = Finals

The post that Veek was responding to referenced "Olympic Final".

The Olympic Final is definitively the L2...

Veek is correct given how the post read.

Maybe the poster intended L8, but that's not what they said.

[Jason]

My sources tell me that he recently left the life of a high-profile lawyer to pursue an acting career.

[veeco]

Nick Bravin was cool.

[Army Fencer]

Originally Posted by noahz

I think ArmyFencer told me that this program is not elgible to enlisted men, only officers.

It wasn't me! Cody's enlisted, for example.

[noahz]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

It wasn't me! Cody's enlisted, for example.

I thought wrong.

[druidfoil11]

westbrook "aquired" a bronze medal....he didn't win it...anyone have any guesses as to how much the US paid for that?

[fencerbill]

Well it certainly wasn't because US fencers were favored by referees.

[rcmatthews]

Not only that, but do you really think the Euro's at the time would allow a black man to have the bronze. I don't. I think that makes his achievement that much more amazing.

[KD5MDK]

Heh. Bias from the referees? Or jury? Say it ain't so.