Tyshler Personal Fencing Trainer

[Craig]

I got beat to the punch on the product launch announcement, so here it is:

The Tyshler Personal Fencing Trainer is for sale at the Fencing.Net Equipment Store.

I've been working with Gennady Tyshler on this and a couple of other projects. The device is a very good idea. It provides cues in the form of different types of beeps (tones/length) to drive different responses as set forth in the drills.

I had one at the USACFCs and a few people took a look at it. The coaches who I showed it to thought it was a great idea and so did the fencers who had enough time to try it for a minute.

There are a couple of fencers in Atlanta who have tried out an early release of the device and the response has been the same for them and for me:

What we've collectively agreed is:

• It makes doing drills more of a game and less boring
• Using the device improves reaction/response time
• The speed improvements translated directly to the piste

All of this, plus when's the last time you had a "consumer electronics" device made in Russia?

The device comes with a booklet and DVD with 48 drills (24 foil/epee, 24 sabre) and there will be additional DVDs with more drills released in the near future.

If you are going to be at the Southeast Sectionals, I'll have them there and you can try it out.

Craig

[KD5MDK]

How long does it take to associate the beeps with the moves? I think I'd find that tough to start with.

[Craig]

About as long as it takes you to associate a clap with "go!".

Really, not long at all. We are pretty adaptable creatures.

Craig

[gladius]

Originally Posted by Craig

About as long as it takes you to associate a clap with "go!".

Really, not long at all. We are pretty adaptable creatures.

Craig

No Craig, we aren't that adaptable, if you follow KD. Wonder what the darwinian implications are.....

[Mr Epee]

I have no dog in this discussion, but Szabo is vehemently against the use of audible cues.

[Poulet]

So I guess we're biased against deaf fencers now, huh.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by Craig

About as long as it takes you to associate a clap with "go!".

Really, not long at all. We are pretty adaptable creatures.

Craig

I can see "when you hear the sound, do a lunge" being very easy. It's the multiple cues and interpreting which is which that I think would have a steep learning curve.

What level of fencer are the lessons aimed at?

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by Poulet

So I guess we're biased against deaf fencers now, huh.

So long as Leon Paul doesn't get Cornflower to test it.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

So long as Leon Paul doesn't get Cornflower to test it.

You mean Tyshler. Leon Paul is not the manufacturer of the device. They are marketing it in the UK.

Craig

[gladius]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I can see "when you hear the sound, do a lunge" being very easy. It's the multiple cues and interpreting which is which that I think would have a steep learning curve.

What level of fencer are the lessons aimed at?

In Texas it is called being able to walk and chew gum. Some can ... and some obviuosly have a harder time.

[Poulet]

Originally Posted by gladius

In Texas it is called being able to walk and chew gum. Some can ... and some obviuosly have a harder time.

What's the point of drills that are as easy to do as walking and chewing gum at the same time?

...Difficulty is a good thing.

[darius]

So how does this device work exactly? It beeps, and then based on which beep you hear, you do a specific sequence. I assume the sequences are outlined in the DVD/manual?

Using over 40 years of research into motor reaction training, Gennady Tysher has created this device. The same techniques and training theories that have been used to make the Russian fencing team one of the strongest in the world have gone into this Personal Fencing Trainer.

What makes this better than, say, a TargetSpeed? That gives you a visual cue, and provides success/failure feedback with regards to your point control; if you wanted to add a footwork exercise before the actual hit, you could.

I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade -- it sounds interesting, but where how the marketing speak translate into the real world? Are the sequences the actual ones used by the Russian fencing team? Are the tones some sort of super-neat frequency which psychologically trigger an aggressor response?

I know sports science tends to lag coaching practice, but the best thing you could possibly do is come up with a study showing the effects of training with this device over, say, a month compared to those who don't.

darius

[shlepzig]

Originally Posted by Poulet

One quick note:


I haven't been able to find anything: no credentials, results, nothing on this Tysher guy.

Assuming for a moment that you are not joking. The name is spelled, Tyshler.

GENNADY TYSHLER junior


Master of Sports of the USSR
Honored coach of the USSR
Honored coach of Ukraine
Candidate of Sciences, Ped
Coach of the USSR National team for 11 years
South African National coach for the numerous World Fencing Championships and 2004 Olympic Games in Athens

Chairmen of Gauteng fencing association

Member of South African fencing association consul
G. Tyshler has published over 30 text-books, manuals and articles on methods of training, produced more then 80 training multimedia products.

From http://www.fencingschool.co.za/pages...g%20school.htm

Shlep
Now going back to assuming that you were joking.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by darius

So how does this device work exactly? It beeps, and then based on which beep you hear, you do a specific sequence. I assume the sequences are outlined in the DVD/manual?

Yes.

What makes this better than, say, a TargetSpeed? That gives you a visual cue, and provides success/failure feedback with regards to your point control; if you wanted to add a footwork exercise before the actual hit, you could.

TargetSpeed is locked to a wall and provides a basic cue: hit here. It then measures the time to hit the target. That will be different based on advance lunge, etc.

This device is small and you can have it in your pocket or strapped to your wrist. There are multiple cues (depending on the complexity level you choose) within the 8 programs that work to increase your "choice reaction".

(A combination of the components of the Personal Fencing Trainer and reaction measurement is on the drawing board and will be based on early feedback on this device.)

I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade -- it sounds interesting, but where how the marketing speak translate into the real world? Are the sequences the actual ones used by the Russian fencing team? Are the tones some sort of super-neat frequency which psychologically trigger an aggressor response?

I can't say if these are the drills used by the Russian team. They may use some of them, but the drills with the first set are fairly basic - for the Russians a lot of them would be akin to freethrow practice. (Useful, but not going to turn you into a world champion overnight.)

come up with a study showing the effects of training with this device over, say, a month compared to those who don't.

This is why we want to get the device out into the field - to get some real world feedback. No, we won't have a double-blind control group, but we will have more feedback for you to go off of.

And, of course, you can come by the fencing.net booth at Nationals and try it out.

Craig

[shlepzig]

Perhaps Craig could give us a bit more information about how the device works it's regimen and what they are like.

Other than that, I'll just guess.
Looking at the picture:
I see a box that looks like it is meant to be strapped to the forearm which implies to me that it connects to a weapon's socket. So that it can sense contact from the point.

The box is also large enough it may have some sort of inertial sensors in it to determine other motion.

I see a series of lights which presumably are some sort of feedback from the device.

I see a series of holes that presumably fit below the speaker to emit the tones that cue the action.

Lastly I see some sort of program button that would presumably allow you choose between regimens.

Further speculation would probably involve alien technology, Area 51 and the Tunguska Incident.

Shlep.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

I have no dog in this discussion, but Szabo is vehemently against the use of audible cues.

As is Czajkowski.

The problem with training to improve your choice reaction time to audible cues is that, in bouts, the cues you need to differentiate between are primarily visual and tactile (and, sometimes, combinations of both). Choice reaction time improves, not because of some magical quickening of your body's reactions, but because of the improvement of your ability to differentiate between cues (plus, of course, improvement of technique), allowing you to react more quickly.

Therefore, training to react more quickly to beeps and whistles, will not improve your ability to react more quickly to anything other than beeps and whistles.

Let's hope for a robot opponent.

[Craig]

You're thinking way too much on this one.

The device is able to be strapped to your arm. It has no internal gyroscopic sensors or whatnot (or else the price would be about 10x what it is given the size of the fencing market!)

It makes different sounds based upon the program selected. The internal chip contains the firmware that runs the different programs.

A training program is set to run for about 5 minutes and will give out different cues in a randomized but allocated basis. (So, if you are in a choice-reaction program it knows to give X% of choice A and Y% of choice B so that you aren't overtraining one way or another.)

No inputs for a body cord. That *may* come in a future device based on feedback and the R&D.

Originally Posted by shlepzig

Perhaps Craig could give us a bit more information about how the device works it's regimen and what they are like.

Other than that, I'll just guess.
Looking at the picture:
I see a box that looks like it is meant to be strapped to the forearm which implies to me that it connects to a weapon's socket. So that it can sense contact from the point.

The box is also large enough it may have some sort of inertial sensors in it to determine other motion.

I see a series of lights which presumably are some sort of feedback from the device.

I see a series of holes that presumably fit below the speaker to emit the tones that cue the action.

Lastly I see some sort of program button that would presumably allow you choose between regimens.

Further speculation would probably involve alien technology, Area 51 and the Tunguska Incident.

Shlep.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Jason

Therefore, training to react more quickly to beeps and whistles, will not improve your ability to react more quickly to anything other than beeps and whistles.

I don't hold a doctorate in anything so I'll pass the comment on to Gennady Tyshler and post his reponse.



Craig

[shlepzig]

Originally Posted by Craig

You're thinking way too much on this one.

The device is able to be strapped to your arm. It has no internal gyroscopic sensors or whatnot (or else the price would be about 10x what it is given the size of the fencing market!)

It makes different sounds based upon the program selected. The internal chip contains the firmware that runs the different programs.

A training program is set to run for about 5 minutes and will give out different cues in a randomized but allocated basis. (So, if you are in a choice-reaction program it knows to give X% of choice A and Y% of choice B so that you aren't overtraining one way or another.)

No inputs for a body cord. That *may* come in a future device based on feedback and the R&D.

Thanks for the information Craig.

Overthinking is something I do quite well. All told, I am little disappointed to hear that it doesn't connect to the weapon.

Shlep.