Why is it most common to start with foil?

[CountAntonio]

I'm just wondering cause it seems foil would be somewhat more limited since it has the smallest target area and you cant hit with the side of the blade...Doesnt seem to be the most noob friendly. I've looked into classes and clubs and foil seems to be what most people are advised to start with. I am starting with it and most likely sticking to it cause it appeals to me the most at least the sound of it.

[mrbiggs]

Easy to switch to the other weapons. The ideas in foil translate easily to epee and sabre, (though not necessarily to both), while sabre and epee are largely very different.

I recently became somewhat subscribed to the thought that sabre is best for younger fencers. It doesn't demand the point control of foil, so they don't have to worry about getting the point to land perfectly and can concentrate on parries and right of way. They can learn point control later. Also, the emphasis on footwork is great for beginningers. Unfortunately, sabre is also the most expensive. Anyone experienced in coaching have thoughts on this?

[oiuyt]

Tradition.

Second reason: most coaches teach what they are most familiar with. There are more people with at least a passing familiarity with foil than with the other weapons (historical reasons having to due with foil being taught first X years ago and 2X years ago, etc.), so there are more people with the ability to teach (low-level) foil than the other weapons.

-B

[keropie]

Tradition and availability of instructors (as Brad pointed out) are the two main reasons. There are some additional reasons for younger, inexperienced fencers in that teaching saber if often an invitation for Zorro and/or whackiness. Additionally, while saber may not require point control at the same level as foil (debatable for high level saber, but certainly beginning I can agree with it), it does require a higher precision of position on defence, and a better awareness of your target at all times.

But I tend to agree with Brad, tradition and availability.

[ViewtifulMisho]

It's because it's traditional. Why is it tradition? It's because foil requires both point control and right of way -- things that are applicable to all three weapons to some extent.

Some might say that right of way is not important in epee, but epee has a "natural right of way," i.e. an epee fencer mainly aims to hit only when he is sure he won't be hit. As such, it's often important to take a parry before launching your own attack, which is what is referred to as "natural right of way." Obviously, it's not the same as foil/sabre RoW, but the basic is there.

Some might also say that point control is not important in sabre, but that will quickly show when they or their students lose touches because of sloppy attacks from the arm or the shoulder instead of from the wrist and the fingers.

[jjefferies]

Tradition. Before there was epee or saber (or what we call saber) the maestro's of old came up with the game we now call foil as a way of teaching young gentlemen how to fight. My own belief is that quite often the young gentleman - and I say gentleman because we are talking about a social class - would come running to the Maestro asking for some magic way to handle a social peer who had challenged them over some idiocy or the other. The maestro's trying to keep the young fellow's alive taught the very basics of going directly to the largest and most deadly target, the body. And thus foil was born as a teaching game. When dueling became legally (and later socially) unacceptable epee and then saber came in as games rather than deadly contests. Both were to some greater or lesser extent derived from actual combat practice rather than being conceived as a teaching tool.

Or so I've been taught.

[Teme]

I've found out that starting with saber allow for more quicker advance into simple tactics, the meaning of distance and Yodaic "do or do not, there is no try" things... but I teach only aldults, and I bet the diverse cognitive skills and attention span of juvenile delinquets change the rules a lot.

As for the 'birth' of epee, I recall it was during the rock-bottom of fencing (or the golden era of classical fencing, the latter half of 19th century) when some got tired of the plastic, static, exactly formulated foil that was the norm, and came up with a heavier weapon and very laxed rules...

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


In Sweden, the "foil-first-always" tradition stopped decades ago. There are still clubs that usually start off with foil, but most places start of with epee. Why:

1. No lame
2. Cheapest electric setup
3. Not as conducive to whackiness as sabre
4. No need to teach ROW
5. No worrying - "was that valid or not valid target?" when steam bouting
6. Easier to educate parents to the level of passable refs for local comps
7. Promotes point control

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Padawan]

I once had someone explain to me form overseas that american's learn foil first because it is chapter 1 in all fencing books. We (our clubs) start everyone in sabre first in order to have a retention rate of about 80%. If you are interested why you can PM me.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

[*]No worrying - "was that valid or not valid target?" when steam bouting

Was that stophit that skipped off the wrist enough to register a touch?

Was that hit to the elbow far enough ahead to lock out that hit to the shoulder?

Yeah, epee's much better than foil for steam fencing alright... :eyeroll: :)

-B

[griffindm]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Was that stophit that skipped off the wrist enough to register a touch?

Was that hit to the elbow far enough ahead to lock out that hit to the shoulder?

Yeah, epee's much better than foil for steam fencing alright... :eyeroll:

-B

I think Peter's point is that it is less expensive to move the bouting directly to electric scoring, where none of your observations are applicable. This is certainly true, but involves more expense and setup time (where you cannot have strips permanently mounted) than many clubs that share space can afford.

[penguin_2000]

...because then you'll actually USE the parries you learn?

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by griffindm

I think Peter's point is that it is less expensive to move the bouting directly to electric scoring, where none of your observations are applicable.

And you'll notice that I didn't object to rationale #2, but specified that I was focused on rationale #5.

In much of Scandanvia I would say that epee is taught first because epee was taught first X years ago and there are more epee practicioners.

This helps to bolster my second point, actually.

-B

[zéphirin]

Originally Posted by Padawan

I once had someone explain to me form overseas that american's learn foil first because it is chapter 1 in all fencing books.

hah hah hah.... this is great, but what about those of us who don't read (W?) ... fencing books???

Is there a correlation between American foil fencers and ADD?

[Allen Evans]

Foil as a “beginners weapon” is a result of momentum, tradition, and rigid thinking. A large number of coaches teaching under older schools were firm in the belief that there was a hierarchy of weapons: foil, then saber, then epee. This – as someone pointed out – resulted in foil being fairly widespread, and the other two weapons less so. This was self perpetuating as long as fencing remained a small sport in the United States: fencing foil insured that you could visit any club, anywhere, and get a bout in.

It seems like the dark ages, but it wasn’t that long ago that women were taught ONLY foil. As late as the mid 1980’s, I knew several older maitres who would not teach saber to women, and only grudgingly taught them epee. This helped insure that there were always more foil fencers than the other two weapons at a club. Thankfully, those days are past.

Finally, and I’ll agree with Ouiyt on this: foil coaches (both good and bad) are much more widespread than the other two weapons. This is starting to change, and I'm seeing more clubs focusing on saber and epee as their primary weapons, catering to the strength of their coaching staff.

I've experimented with starting fencers off in other weapons besides foil, with indifferent results, mostly because the fencers have quit (for a variety of reasons) early in their training.

[Bayou Bum]

Originally Posted by Padawan

I once had someone explain to me form overseas that american's learn foil first because it is chapter 1 in all fencing books. We (our clubs) start everyone in sabre first in order to have a retention rate of about 80%. If you are interested why you can PM me.

LOL ... best explanation I have ever heard

[Captain Hook]

The transition to the other two is easier from foil

It teaches parries and lines and ROW which also applies to Sabre if someone wants change over

it develops a stronger, more confident attack and an understanding of fencing phrase and tactics

and i personally think it develops more point contol that the other two weapons, it's pretty difficult hitting the body from some positions.

[Fencergrl]

My coach start beginners off in epee as well. Kids will often do mini-epee (foil blade & target area, no row).

[Beowulfman6]

Tradition and the weapon the coach fences. I've generaly found that clubs start fencers on the primary weapon of the coach, but that is just from my experiences in my little corner of the fencing world.

[statisticool]

Originally Posted by CountAntonio

I'm just wondering cause it seems foil would be somewhat more limited since it has the smallest target area and you cant hit with the side of the blade...Doesnt seem to be the most noob friendly. I've looked into classes and clubs and foil seems to be what most people are advised to start with. I am starting with it and most likely sticking to it cause it appeals to me the most at least the sound of it.

From what I've read in Evangelista's books and elsewhere (http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/Foil.php), it is because of two things

1) helps learn point control.

2) helps learn right of way. That is, it shows you how to act logically if the weapons were sharp.
It is much easier, the argument goes, to learn this first, then drop it for epee, than to not learn it, and have to pick it up.

Put 1) and 2) together, and you get control over your actions.

Epee has no right of way, and sabre, while one can definitely use the point, it is argued that in practice the point tends to be neglected.