Cheating stories

[captstorm]

Hi.

In sabre the crossover advance is forbidden.
But I have seen a lot of people do a cross the rear foot behind the front foot and doing that at a high speed is hard to see for a refee. it give you a big advance that some one doing a normal advance can not match. It will let you catch a fast fencer backing up that you can not catch otherwise.
It is not allowed you are not to cross your rear foot past your front foot but I have it on tape from a camera i set up behind a fencer who was doing it.
he was beating the other guy 5 -0 and when I called it to the refee he lost the bout 15 - 7. it is cheating and hard to see. I hate it and some coachs are teaching it and say only use it when you need a point. so it is real hard to see if it is only used 1 time in 5 but its there if you need a edge.
So I think it should be a red card if you get seen doing it.

i talked to a high usfa refee and they are looking at it as it is a growing problem. All coachs should know about it to watch for it and report it fast because it gives a bout to the bad guy. I think it is the number 1 cheating
move in fencing today. maybe a black card should be awarded to stamp it out or go back to letting the forward advance being done in sabre again.
to make the playing field fair.

[BenTheEMOP]

In epee, the one thing that I notice is there are some fencers who think every time they hit the floor it is a toe touch. I keep notes on most of my tournament bouts and going back over it, I noticed there was one guy I had fenced in several tournament who always argued over the floor touches. Is this cheating? Not exactly, but after having so many floor touches counted as invalid, you would think he'd let a few of them go.

[annacattiva]

Hi.

In sabre the crossover advance is forbidden.
It will let you catch a fast fencer backing up that you can not catch otherwise.
So I think it should be a red card if you get seen doing it.

While I agree that the crossover is something to watch out for, and that some people try to use it to get points, I have to point out a few things. As you said, it IS forbidden. It might let you catch a fast fencer backing up, but a better chance would be fencing well and manipulating distance to get your opponent where you want them. Also, the sudden and unexpected advancing speed will often tip off the referee that something unusual is going on with the feet. You might just have watched a referee who hadn't been paying attention until you pointed it out.
And it IS a red card starting with the second offense.

[fencerbill]

I am more inclined to consider people careless rather than willfully cheating. After having watched Don Benge insisting that he was not covering target in Reno Veterans Foil when he got caught for the fifth time in 3 bouts, he really didn't think he was doing it.

And in Sabre, I believe people are just trying that much harder to close distance when they crossover rather than waiting to do it intentionally. But they should still be detected and penalized so they will try that much harder not to and and also so they will not benefit from it.

A fencer can always ask for floor judges, even in local events, although they may not get them. But it puts everyone on record to watch for it more diligently. I saw several instances in Reno as bouts got closer to the Gold Medal that fencers were asking for floor judges even before the bout started.

[Frank Pratt]

The classic cheating story is Boris Onishenko's magic epee at the 76 Olympics...French grip rigged with an additional pair or wires that could be shorted together to fire the light.

I don;t think tha ti was ever proven that HE was the rigger...he was an officer in the Soviet armed forces, and when the KGB guys tell you to cheat, you cheat unless you want to spend rest of life in gulag...there are some who thought he fired the light waaaay early on purpose so he would get caught without actually giving himself up.

This is a falacy. It was NOT a French grip, it was an orthopedic, which is the reason for the tape rule only being applied to orthopedic and not French. This was a professional job with a switch (not a pressure, but a capacitance) was molded into the handle.

I heard that the 2nd set of wires in this "magic" weapon were actually embedded in the blade, meaning the work was probably done when the blade was originally forged. Sounds like an inside job, not something that was done in the fencer's garage the night before the event. Did that blade come from a Russian factory, by any chance?

Getting false hits to "register" is épée is child's play, and I think this is why much of the cheating that has happened has occurred in épée. However, I've never figured out how you could get false on-target touches to register in foil or sabre without tampering with the floor cables and/or box.

[Beowulfman6]

Getting false hits to "register" is épée is child's play, and I think this is why much of the cheating that has happened has occurred in épée. However, I've never figured out how you could get false on-target touches to register in foil or sabre without tampering with the floor cables and/or box.

I think it would be possible, although difficult, to make a white light register at will in foil by breaking the circuit between the B and C lines somehow, but it would still have to touch the lame. This could be used for infighting as the point would only have to touch the lame and not actualy be depressed.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

One of the coolest way to cheat in epee would be to make a button that when pressed, would make it impossible to score with the point normally. Then you insulate the end of the point, so that when you hit the bell you can score. When its time to test bells, you just press the switch, and voila, no light. Resume fencing and fleche for the bell.

[Purple Fencer]

This is a falacy. It was NOT a French grip, it was an orthopedic, which is the reason for the tape rule only being applied to orthopedic and not French. This was a professional job with a switch (not a pressure, but a capacitance) was molded into the handle.

Huh.....I'd always heard 2 wires on a French grip....ah well...

[Durando]

Nobody's mentioned hitting your own thigh while infighting in épée. I've also heard that pushing your point across the floor (in a toe touch attempt) when fencing on a smooth piste sometimes causes the light to go off.

[Frank Pratt]

Nobody's mentioned hitting your own thigh while infighting in épée. I've also heard that pushing your point across the floor (in a toe touch attempt) when fencing on a smooth piste sometimes causes the light to go off.

Hence the rules that make it illegal to turn your back on your opponent and drag your point on the strip. Turning the back is considered my many to be a safety issue, but safety was not the justification for the original rule.

[DHCJr]

I heard that the 2nd set of wires in this "magic" weapon were actually embedded in the blade, meaning the work was probably done when the blade was originally forged. Sounds like an inside job, not something that was done in the fencer's garage the night before the event. Did that blade come from a Russian factory, by any chance?

Getting false hits to "register" is épée is child's play, and I think this is why much of the cheating that has happened has occurred in épée. However, I've never figured out how you could get false on-target touches to register in foil or sabre without tampering with the floor cables and/or box.

What was done was a second set of wires was connected at the joint of the tang, just below the spagetti and into the handle. As you said, it was not done in a garage. It was a professional job.

In Foil as well as Pentathlon is almost as good to get the weapon to not work. Suppose it is 14-14 to get into the medal round and you are caught flat footed. Wouldn't it be nice, if suddenly your weapon no longer worked. It is as easy to do that as to get a false hit in Epee.

One of the coolest way to cheat in epee would be to make a button that when pressed, would make it impossible to score with the point normally. Then you insulate the end of the point, so that when you hit the bell you can score. When its time to test bells, you just press the switch, and voila, no light. Resume fencing and fleche for the bell.

As I said above, it is as easy to do that as to get a false hit in Epee, with a few exceptions. There are certain boxes, St. George and Eigertech that still allow touches even if there is a short in the weapon. This is a cheat a good referee should be able to catch. If the yellow light comes on when they are testing, the referee should call for an Armorer. There is a switch in the weapon or bodycord.

[tbryan]

This is a cheat a good referee should be able to catch. If the yellow light comes on when they are testing, the referee should call for an Armorer.

By "yellow light," did you mean the little grounding light? In that case, you probably meant to say, "If the yellow light does not come on when they are testing, the referee should call for an Armorer."

Sometimes, it's not a switch. The fencer's weapon has just died. The referee will notice it when testing weapons before the bout, but I once had a fencer's tip die in the middle of a DE. He didn't notice it, but I asked the fencers to test bell guards after their first 1 minute break. One fencer's ground light did not register. I checked the weapon. The barrel was cracked, and the weapon no longer registered touches. I'm not sure why the fencer hadn't checked his own tip (touch his foot, glance at the tip, etc.) before that point.

I always look for the ground light when epeeists are testing bells. Perhaps that just comes from fencing on strips with cheap reels that sometimes flake out.

[Durando]

Hence the rules that make it illegal to turn your back on your opponent and drag your point on the strip. Turning the back is considered my many to be a safety issue, but safety was not the justification for the original rule.

Very easy to hit yourself without turning your back! Prime into your own thigh and often the director is in no position to see it.

[DHCJr]

By "yellow light," did you mean the little grounding light? In that case, you probably meant to say, "If the yellow light does not come on when they are testing, the referee should call for an Armorer."

Sometimes, it's not a switch. The fencer's weapon has just died. The referee will notice it when testing weapons before the bout, but I once had a fencer's tip die in the middle of a DE. He didn't notice it, but I asked the fencers to test bell guards after their first 1 minute break. One fencer's ground light did not register. I checked the weapon. The barrel was cracked, and the weapon no longer registered touches. I'm not sure why the fencer hadn't checked his own tip (touch his foot, glance at the tip, etc.) before that point.

OOPS! I should have said Orange light, since by the rules in Epee, the ground light should be Orange.

I always look for the ground light when epeeists are testing bells. Perhaps that just comes from fencing on strips with cheap reels that sometimes flake out.

I should have been more clear. If the yellow light comes on for the fencer making the hit against the guard, then the referee should call the Armorer.

If you notice on the guard connector there are 2 screws and on an Uhlman type of cord, there are 2 screws accross from each other. Suppose they were accidently connected to the B and C lines and someone had a piece of metalic tape on their thumb and they touched the screws with it. 2 things will happen the weapon will not score a touch AND the ground light will come on. If a fencer asks you too test their weapon and you suddenly see the yellow light come on, check the weapon WITHOUT them holding the weapon.

[fencingfrog]

If the yellow light comes on when they are testing, the referee should call for an Armorer. There is a switch in the weapon or bodycord.

not always true. one of the boxes at our club was busted and it did that no matter who or what foil was fencing.
it was really wierd, but we just ignored it...

[melihop]

not always true. one of the boxes at our club was busted and it did that no matter who or what foil was fencing.
it was really wierd, but we just ignored it...

than that means there is somthing wrong with the box.. and you should call an armoror!

[JMcC]

I brought this up in another thread and decided to make my own. Anyone got any cheating stories, behaviors I should look out for? I am not talking ambiguous corps-a-corps or anything like that, I mean real, honest-to-god cheating. And, NO, I am not looking for tips on how to cheat. I just think that as fencers this is something that (unfortunately) we need to look out for.

This is probably in that gray area between actually cheating and bending rules almost to the breaking point.
I was a an RYC earlier this season and watched a Y14 M foil fencer with chest protector that was at least one size too large, such that his lame was as tight as a drum all the way around his chest; he looked like the tin woodsman from the Wizard of Oz.
Many of his opponent's touches that weren't exactly dead on just glanced off without scoring. He had the foil equivalent of a "bulletproof vest."

[DHCJr]

This is probably in that gray area between actually cheating and bending rules almost to the breaking point.
I was a an RYC earlier this season and watched a Y14 M foil fencer with chest protector that was at least one size too large, such that his lame was as tight as a drum all the way around his chest; he looked like the tin woodsman from the Wizard of Oz.
Many of his opponent's touches that weren't exactly dead on just glanced off without scoring. He had the foil equivalent of a "bulletproof vest."

You stated the lame', not the jacket was 'as tight as a drum'. Was the chest protector inside the jacket or outside. If the answer was outside as your statement implies, then there would be no grey area, they were cheating.

[fencingfrog]

my friend was talking about this situation with the wicked tight lame. couldn't the chest protector be under the jacket and make the jacket really tight, then make the lame really tight by just using a smaller size than he should?

[DHCJr]

Yes, that is why I asked the question. I wasn't sure if it was as you described or just the lame' that was tight.