US Naval academy

[zoro]

Why don't they have a fencing program any longer? and when was the program stoppped?

[Amie]

don't know why they stopped it but i think the navy ended their fencing program 10-12 years ago.

[Jeffrey R. Tishman]

The U.S. Naval Academy last fielded a fencing team in the 1992-1993 season.

The Naval Academy Athletic Association (NAAA) announced that that would be its last season of fencing competition – after 148 years. Fencing has been far and away the most successful team at Navy – in and out of competition. Ironically, the founder of the NAAA was a fencer – Robert M. Thompson – one of the greatest figures in the history of collegiate and amateur sports in the U.S.

Navy was the fourth team to join the IFA (1896) and won its first IFA individual championship in 1897 and its first team title in 1901. It won numerous team and individual championships in the IFA and NCAA over the next century.

In 1921 and 1922, Navy was the first team to sweep the three IFA individual titles. In 1959, Navy was the first team to sweep the three NCAA individual titles.

In all sports combined, Navy has won five NCAA team championships. Three of these were in fencing.

Navy fenced in the NIWFA from 1976.

Many Navy fencers won the AFLA national championship and made the U.S. Olympic fencing team from 1912 to 1976.

Among the many great fencing coaches associated with Annapolis were Francois Darrieulat (who had been Theodore Roosevelt’s fencing coach); and three generations of the Deladrier family, including Andre Deladrier (the first native-born coach of a U.S. Olympic fencing team)in 1960.

But the fencing team wasn’t just successful on the strip.

More admirals and generals were associated with fencing than with any other sport at Annapolis. In addition, there were more fencers in the “Trident Program” (who graduate in three years rather than four) than the members of any other team. All these factors contributed to jealousy in the athletic department.

But the main reason the team was dropped was because the Navy Athletic
Director - Jack Lengyel - decided that he would rather lavish money on himself and his friends than on minor sports, and no one stopped him.

The Athletic Department was allegedly facing a financial shortfall of $300,000.
The fencing team’s expenses had markedly increased in a short span for three reasons:

 The additional needless expense of electric sabre.
 The additional needless expense of women’s epee.
 The additional needless expense of taking part in the NCAA’s “phony” regionals.

So Lengyel decided to cut men’s fencing and women’s fencing, men’s gymnastics and women’s gymnastics, and shooting. Then, all of a sudden, there was just enough money to buy a fancy condominium for the exclusive use of the Athletic Director. What’s more, there was just enough money left over to take 100 “friends” of the Navy Athletic Association to the Army-Navy football game – all expenses paid - including housing at a luxury hotel. This was all well documented in the Baltimore Sun several years ago. When this was finally pointed out, Lengyel began paying rent on his condo.

Of course, it didn’t help the fencing situation at Annapolis that colleges have been dropping fencing like crazy for the past twenty years. Or, that the expenses of fielding a fencing team have been increasing geometrically. You can also be sure that if Army still had a varsity – so would Navy. But at least Army has a club. Navy has nothing, thanks to Lengyel, who eliminated the sport completely and sold its equipment so it could not be easily restored. After nearly 150 years!

Of course, the people at Navy will tell you that they are talking about re-establishing fencing. They have been talking about this for eight years. In another eight years, they will still be talking about it.

[Cornell also dropped its men’s and women’s fencing teams in 1993 (after 98 years), but they subsequently revived their women’s varsity team to avoid a lawsuit similar to that taken against Brown University.]

The reasons collegiate fencing has been declining for the past twenty years can be discussed in another thread.

[Mergs]

Jeff,

Thanks for the detailed history of the NA's program! Do you think that with the success of the AFA's program the other academies might take the same route? How do you think the ball might get started rolling?

[vegan]

Ahem,
Well, gang there is a club at navy- and they even have a good fencer or two. They have come to several local or regional events this year. I belive that Midshipman Lapointe is the club "President" (or whatever). There are also some staff members who are interested and seem to be helping them.
B.
Ps. after their last experiance with modern foil directing they may not come back . . . but I hope they do.

[space_cadet]

Cut backs.

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Cadet à Space

[sabreuse]

Mr. Tishman,

OK, granted that there appears to have been some malfeasance with the Navy's athletic program budget, let's go back to your statement about the fencing program's expenses increasing.

I know there are some folks that still pine for the old non-electric sabre days. I can let that comment slide. I don't know enough about where the Armed Forces fit into the USFA's overall program to make any intelligent comment on the expenses related to "phony regionals".

However, I'm still puzzling over your comment about the "needless expense of women's epee". In what way was the expense "needless". Was it because sexism in sports had been fine for so long that there was no need for it to stop? How much more could it cost to field a co-ed epee team than a men-only team? Were there really that many women in the Naval Academy that wanted to fence epee? If there were, it seems like that would be an even stronger argument that the expense wasn't "needless".

Please explain your comment.

[This message has been edited by sabreuse (edited 03-25-2001).]

[Jeffrey R. Tishman]

1) I don't know what the "AFA" is. What program are they running?

2) OK. So now Navy has a fencing "club". I hope they have a lot of fun with it. Just like with their chess club or their camera club or whatever other clubs they've got.

A club is so far below a varsity team - let alone a fabulously successful varsity team that was nearly 150 years old - that it is laughable. How will the "club" retain any of its members interest if they can't even get a varsity letter, let alone a chance to fence in the IFA's, fence in the NCAA's, become All-American or get a national ranking (team or ind)?

And this is at a military academy!
Fencing is an important sport in every military academy of every country of the world. Every country but one! Guess which one.

In the last dozen years, since the NCAA combined its men's and women's fencing championships into a single championship there has been only one new varsity team created (Sacred Heart University).

[oiuyt]

A club is so far below a varsity team - let alone a fabulously successful varsity team that was nearly 150 years old - that it is laughable. How will the "club" retain any of its members interest if they can't even get a varsity letter, let alone a chance to fence in the IFA's, fence in the NCAA's, become All-American or get a national ranking (team or ind)?

Granted the top level varsities are WAAAYYYYY ahead of club programs. But to suggest that clubs can't achieve the level of varsity teams is just crazy. I won't bother mentioning some of the low level varsities I've seen as I don't really want to bash on them, but look at club teams like Florida or Northwestern Men or Tuft's Men. The idea that programs like these are "so far below the level of a varsity"....

If the only reasons to fence are those mentioned, how do you reconcile this with the fact that peolpe continue fencing after graduation? While I was a member of a varsity team (Johns Hopkins) while in college I'm now affiliated with a club team (UMass), and have had large numbers of friends in both situations. Your arguments are offensive to club teams and any member of a club team.

The additional needless expense of electric sabre.
The additional needless expense of women’s epee.
The additional needless expense of taking part in the NCAA’s “phony” regionals.

I suppose that adding sabre to the women's program's another needless expense? Are you suggesting that the NCAA (and/or USFA and/or FIE) shouldn't have elctrified sabre and added women's epee or that Navy didn't need to do these things despite the fact that the NCAA did?

I'll wait to find out from you which of these positions you're advocating before giving my arguments, but suffice it to say that I strongly disagree with both.

In what way are the NCAA regionals "phony"? While it would be NICE to have nationals run the way they used to be, especially with all of the team/squad events which no longer exist, that's clearly a seperate issue.

-B

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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

All your music are belongs to us- RIAA

[Jeffrey R. Tishman]

Miss Sabreuse:

1) There wasn't some malfeasance at Navy; there was a lot of malfeasance at Navy. What's more, when it gets pointed out to the administration of the Academy, they invariably stonewall. Lengyel is still on the job there. He belongs on the street!!!

2) You don't have to overlook my comments on non-electric vs. electric sabre. I don't know how long you've been fencing - I've been fencing for 36 years. My family has been in this sport for 100 years. I can state unequivocably that electric sabre is crap! It's completely destroyed the sport. It is a textbook example of how change is not necessarily progress.

I can provide several examples of how the rules of sabre fencing were detrimentally altered to accomodate the machine.

Even if the USFA was obliged to go along with electric sabre because the FIE picked it up, that was no obligation for collegiate fencing to do so.

3) Adding women's epee to collegiate fencing programs in 1993 was at best premature. Women who wanted to fence epee had plenty of opportunities to do so in the USFA. Most chose not to do so, even in the large divisions.

Sexism has nothing to do with this. Look at gymnastics - do any men do the balance beam; do any women do the rings? If any did, would they be allowed to negatively impact the sport?

Most colleges don't need any excuses to drop fencing - the continuing increase in start-up and maintenance expenses is the biggest contributing factor. Adding women's epee doubled all the expenses associated with a women's team.

They didn't even add it correctly. Women had been fencing a 16 bout foil match (4x4). With the addition of epee, they should have fenced an 18 bout match (3x3 foil; 3x3 epee) or a 13 bout match (3x3 foil; 2x2 epee). Instead, incredibly, they went to two separate 16 bout matches (4x4 twice) and then eventually ran 32 bout matches (4x4 foil; 4x4 epee). Many small schools didn't have eight women out for the team. Nobody in authority cared. The same goes double for women's sabre.

Throughout the '90's I saw schools (even big IFA schools) routinely show up to women's matches short up to three or four fencers. What is the point of running such a meet? If I were an AD and saw that happen twice I would have cancelled the team!!!

You probably are not sufficiently knowledgable about the history of women's collegiate fencing to know that the last big NIWFA championship (its 52nd in 1980 at Ohio State) had 32 varsity teams participating; with additional individuals from another thirty or so teams. That year the NIWFA had 79 member schools - all varsity. Of course, this was before the AIAW, NCAA, and IFA screwed up women's collegiate fencing.

Last week, the NIWFA held its 73rd championship - with 16 schools (4 varsities and 12 puny clubs). Next year, it's anticipated that they will have one fewer varsity because one of the schools is expected to drop the sport.

[Jeffrey R. Tishman]

Oiuyt:

Club fencing is very nice for those involved, and it's certainly better than nothing; it's just not much better.

Many of the "new" clubs are not "new" - they are recently deceased varsities. This does us absolutely no good with the NCAA.

Obviously I'm suggesting that the NCAA did not need to electrify sabre. Or add women's epee or women's sabre. In the last dozen years we've had only one new varsity team created. Collegiate fencing was in better shape at the depths of the Great Depression than it is now!

The NCAA regionals are "phony" regionals because the NCAA knows nothing about them and has nothing to do with their organization - because if they did they would have to pay all the expenses - including airfare - to conduct them. The NCAA contributes nothing. That's why they are "phony" regionals.

What's more, the results of the "phony" regionals are not followed exclusively for qualification to the big NCAA. There are many examples of "horsetrading" between coaches who are on the selection committee.

When I speak of the old NCAA championships, I am speaking of when it was a three-man team (one fencer in each weapon) - i.e., pre-1984. From the 1940's to the 1970's, college fencing grew every year because every team had a chance. Ever since the NCAA started paying for the airplane tickets (1977) they have screwed things up.

We used to have a wonderful series of conference championships - most of which were run out of business by the NCAA. These include the Western Intercollegiates (last held in 1978); the North Atlantics (1987); the Big Ten (1987); the CUNY and the ACC, etc. Now we only have the IFA (elite) and the MAC and NIWFA (both bottom feeders).

[sabreuse]

Mr. Tishman.

Ah yesss, the good old days. Let's never change anything again. You know what? The present is reality. Deal with it.

I refuse to further participate in this sort of argument. Neither of us is likely to be swayed.

[Mergs]

AFA=Air Force Academy

[Mergs]

Hey all, check out this article. Kind of fits with what we have been discussing.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2001Mar21.html

Please remember him in your thoughts.

[oiuyt]

We obviously have a difference of opinion over whether or not fencing in any context other than collegiate varsity team is worthwhile, so no need to continue arguing that.

Regarding new clubs: what do you suggest that we do to increase the likelihood of new teams being added?

Re: 4 varsities at NIWFA's. Unless I'm mistaken, FDU, JHU, JMU, Hunter, Drew, Temple, Cornell, Steven's and Tufts are all varsities, and that's just what I can name off the top of my head without consulting a list of who was there.

Re: changes in sabre when it was switched to electric. Obviously change is not necesarilly progress. That doesn't mean that we should nash teeth over the ruining of our sport because it has changed. Might as well complain about removal of cross-overs in sabre too, or that foil baldes are too whippy. While you might be right it doesn't help anything. At USFA national's last summer someone got up at USFA congress to raise the question of why the USFA had gone along with the FIE on removing the forward cross-over in sabre and since we were in theory our own governing body with our own rules couldn't we just add it back in for US competition? While this is clearly more extreme than what you're saying it's similar to your point of why couldn't the NCAA leave sabre dry while everyone else switched to electrics.

There are certainly more than just IFAs, NIWFAs, and MACs. Just in the areas where I've fenced there's the NEIFC (New England Intercollegiate Fencing Conference) and UAA (University Athletic Association) championships. I have no clue what conference tournaments are held in the midwest, west, or south, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were other conferences out there. The removal of most of the conference championships that you list is a second order effect of loss of teams. Of course if a conference losses teams at some point it'll not make sense to hold a tournament (the Big 10 has what, 2 fencing teams in it? Ditto the ACC?). Bringing up the issue of loss of teams is one thing (and worthwhile), bringing up the issue of loss of conferences is another. The lack of conference titles would get solved if there were more teams.

Okay, to sum up... we disagree on the importance of non-varsity fencing. We disagree on whether or not NCAA fencing should include electrified sabre and any women's events other than foil. We both feel agree that it would be nice to have more varsity teams.

Taking this last point, what steps do you propose be taken to move towards this goal? Yes fencing is an expensive sport (whether electrified sabre or not) but is this REALLY the reason you see the number of teams decreasing? How much does a set of fencing gear cost vs. a set of lacrosse pads? Every sport has expensive equipment, things like travel costs dwarf these expenses even in a single year. The added cost of sabre gear and women's events isn't why we're STILL losing teams, those expenses have already been met by the teams that would be dropped now.

Let's move towards something useful like a discussion of how to add teams and keep those that we have. Probably a new thread as well.

-B

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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

All your music are belongs to us- RIAA

[oiuyt]

Okay, I've added a new topic under fencing discussion (this is no longer really just a water cooler discussion) for the topic of adding and maintaining NCAA varsity programs.

Also, just by picking a schools from a region that I haven't fenced in I found that there is indeed a Midwest Fencing Championshsips.

-B

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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

All your music are belongs to us- RIAA

[Emfuser]

Indeed there is a Midwestern Fencing Championship (in which I placed 10th in men's foil). It was held about 3 weeks ago.

Also, there is a Big 10 fencing championships held every year (early fall) at Northwestern.

Mike
"Club Scrub"
Purdue University