Referee exam question 428 - sabre

[lindajdunn]

I think the answer to this is c. no touch, but I'd appreciate it if someone more knowledgeable than I confirmed/corrected this. On the one hand, I can see this being called touch for X since X missed, Y missed, and X's remise would presumably have occurred before Y's. However, the question reads (or at least, I read the question ) as both actions occurring simultaneously. In fact, the more I type, the more I think it should be a, touch for x, since x had priority. Or am I reading things into this that are not explicitly stated?

428. Fencer X makes an attack with advance-lunge. Fencer Y counterattacks with a lunge. Neither of these actions lands. Both fencers remise simultaneously; the remises land at the same time.
a. award a touch for X
b. award a touch for Y
c. no touch

[Spike327]

I think it should be A also.. but then again I fence epee. It's kind of awkwardly worded, because it doesn't explicitly say that Y's 'counterattack' came after X finished his attack (making Y's action a riposte, which misses and gives X the priority). If that was the case, I guess it should be a touch for X.

*edit* meant to type an A there...

[fencergal33]

Hmmm.....my brain is fuzzy this morning, but I think B. X's initial attack fails. Y still has the riposte. Like I said....my brain is kinda fuzzy right now though...

[edew]

Poulet is incorrect.

A counter-attack by Y is occurring at the same time as the attack by X (otherwise, it would not be called counter-attack).

Linda is correct. Both fencers miss on their first try, both lose right of way, both remises are at the same time, no right of way, no touch.

This occurs often both in foil and saber. In foil, attack by X, inquartata by Y, both miss, both remise immediately, not touch.

In saber, attack (probably to the hand) by X, counter-attack by Y (also to the hand) by Y. Both miss, both reprise or make secondary swipes, hitting at the same time. No touch.

(Poulet, of course, deleted his post, so his evasive answer is still wrong...)

[edew]

Originally Posted by fencergal33

Hmmm.....my brain is fuzzy this morning, but I think B. X's initial attack fails. Y still has the riposte. Like I said....my brain is kinda fuzzy right now though...

The scenario as described in the question does not say Y is making a riposte. Rather, Y is making a counter-attack. In saber, the scenario that plays out is X is making a correctly executed attack while Y is making an incorrectly executed attack (arm overly bent, arm not extending, the 135-degree angle not met, whatever). Then, somehow both swung and caught air. Then, both make a remise (or rather, reprise or redoublement) action, hitting this second time around. Hence, no touch.

It's important, when doing the exam, to read only what's written and not to read any more into the description as given. In many instances, what's written in the exam is lifted verbatim from the rulebook, so it might sound artificial or kookie. But the answer would literally be from the rulebook where the following sentence is the answer.

[stealingophelia]

Originally Posted by Poulet

No... X has right of way and misses. Y instantly gains right of way as X misses, going on to miss his/her counterattack at the same moment as X. Right of way passes back to X...

The only way what you are saying is correct is if Y starts at the same time as X. Y clearly does not; rather performing a counterattack, started after X starts.

That makes no sense, if right of way just passed back and forth like that, how are simul. remises ever called

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Poulet

This is an incorrect and incoherent train of thought.

Y begins counterattack. Y reserves his/her ticket in line for right of way after X loses it.
X misses. Right of way passes to Y.

Y's counterattack has right of way, becomes attack. Y has right of way.

Y misses. Right of way passes to X.

X begins action within his/her allotted one tempo. Y makes a quick remise. X has right of way!

You're right Poulet, the above is an incoherent train of thought.

[KD5MDK]

Good one, Schiavona.

[stealingophelia]

Originally Posted by Poulet

Incorrectly, to dodge having to say "I abstain". Also, they're called when both fencers pause before remising. In this case, there is no pause, so right of way has to pass back and forth. That's the whole idea of right of way, that it does pass back and forth. There's a reason refereeing hand signals alternate hands and it's not just to make for pretty synchronized referee dances.

Absolutely not, let's say fencers are called en guarde, after the command to fence, both make a simul. huge lunge and both points land flat, both simul. remise, two lights. what then?

[Schiavona]

Counter attacks never have ROW. Never, ever. If you think a counter attack has ROW then it isn't a counter attack.

[stealingophelia]

Originally Posted by Poulet

And do both fencers make a simul. huge lunge in this case? No... We're talking about the action described by the first post and how a referee would call it.

Well you boldly stated that any remise simul. ever has been incorrect.

[stealingophelia]

Originally Posted by Poulet

No, I did not. I "boldly" stated that any remise simul. call for this action has been incorrect.

Originally Posted by StealingOphelia

how are simul. remises ever called

this case, although it is also a remise simul i think, wasn't in question.

[stealingophelia]

i was questioning your passing back and forth of right of way

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Poulet

Hence, the line "Y's counterattack has right of way, becomes attack." Read what I wrote before you pick and choose what to make fun of.

I'm not making fun. I'm saying that your above statement is wrong because counterattacks never have ROW.

I hope you're not confusing the scoring of a valid touch with having ROW.

[Poulet]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

I'm not making fun. I'm saying that your above statement is wrong because counterattacks never have ROW.

I hope you're not confusing the scoring of a valid touch with having ROW.

Semantics. You've never heard "Attack, no. Counterattack, no. Remise, valid"? The counterattack has right of way in that case, no? If not, what gives it priority over the remise? You still haven't disproved my conclusion or proposed an alternative.

[Schiavona]

Fencer X attacks with ROW, fencer Y counter attacks (no ROW). Both miss. Remises are simultaneous, both hit. No touch scored, reason; Simultaneous attacks, neither had ROW, or both did if you prefer.

[RITFencing]

Getting the thread back on track, Fencer X attacks, gaining RoW. Fencer Y counter attacks, does not take RoW. Both actions fail, no one has RoW. If the remises are simultaneous, neither fencer picks up RoW, so no touch. Remember that there are times when neither fencer has right of way.

[peet]

Linda:

Go with your initial instinct and don't read too much in to the question. The question says the actions are simul. Simul actions have equal priority, no touch. (that would be my answer anyway )


Poulet:

You seem to say that the remises cannot be simul, but the question explicitly says they are. It may not happen very often, but the question says it did, so you have to answer based on that.

Originally Posted by Poulet

You've never heard "Attack, no. Counterattack, no. Remise, valid"? The counterattack has right of way in that case, no?

No. The counterattack by definition never has ROW.

cheers!
-p

[Chafunkta]

Originally Posted by stealingophelia

That makes no sense, if right of way just passed back and forth like that, how are simul. remises ever called

When the ref has no idea what to do.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Poulet

Semantics. You've never heard "Attack, no. Counterattack, no. Remise, valid"? The counterattack has right of way in that case, no? If not, what gives it priority over the remise? You still haven't disproved my conclusion or proposed an alternative.

If the counter attack hits, the hit has priority. Semantics are the problem here. If you were to call every action an attack or counter attack, the action would be called thusly, "Attack, no. Counter attack, no. Attack, valid." After the first two NOs, whoever moves first has the attack(remise) and ROW.