Wiring: Leon Paul Points

[Allez]

Let me start off by saying that I am not a great armorer, but I do have experience wiring blades. I'm having problems wiring some of the Leon Paul PTFE epee points. I tried twice and both times I ended up with both lights going off when I tried to hook up to a test box.

I couldn't find anything obviously wrong with my wiring job, so I figured what happened was that the wire got bent inside the tip as I was inserting the cup into the barrel (I screw in the barrel first).

I have two questions for the more experienced armorers.

One, do you think I am right about the problem?

And two, do you have any tips/tricks that might help me do it right? For some reason, it is very difficult to push the cup into the barrel. I am using LP wires, but it is a very very tight fit. Do you ever use lubricant for this problem?

Thanks in advance.

[JayhawkPawn]

Give the wire a few inches outside of the barrel after screwing it in, also be sure that you thread the wire through the barrel -before- screwing it down nice and tight, and be sure to keep an eye on it while screwing it down.
Helpful tricks I've seen from around here are using a drop of superglue at the tip, and tang to hold the wire down while gluing. Caps and chains are handy, but I prefer the "bend up against the wall overnight" method that poor people have to use. I had an issue with the wires as well, but that's because of the double-thickness cotton wrap on the blade caused a wierd reaction with the glue I was using.

[MaskDenter]

I am not an expert at armoring either, but I never before had problems wiring until recently. I have previously wired several blades with the LP GT points with no problem, but recently I tried wiring 2 blades with brand new GT points and wires and after 3 attempts they still do not work correctly. At first I had the same problem as you with getting double lights, yet nothing appeared wrong.
I do wonder if there has been some defect with the tips or wires recently, as I know others with new tips that have also had this problem.

[yeoldearmourer]

Check the cup on the end of the wire and make sure the wire are not in the grove where the spring rest the spring sould turn freely around the cup. Two pull thought just to about a inch of wire before tighten the barrel down.

[fencerbill]

Another use for a dremel with thin cutting disk. Some blades have shallow grooves through the threads, both Foil and Epee. The wires are off center and can get get pinched by the narrowing of the barrel against the off center wire.

So use the dremel and very thin cutting wheel to make sure the wire can be at the center of the blade when the barrel is tightened. I used to get shorts between the wire and the blade before I paid attention to this. You could also do it with the proper needle file.

What I do, and I believe it is what Tim was saying, is to put about 2-3 inches of wire through the barrel, then put the barrel on the blade and tighten the barrel. Then pull the wire through the barrel and, finally, push the cup in while pulling lightly on the wire. Doing it in this sequence avoids the problem of finding the groove to push the wire through and making sure you aren't pinching the wire at the tip end. If you mess up the wire while tightening the barrel, it is wire that you are going to strip or cut off anyway and you don't ruin the wire.

If you are getting a tight fit of the cup into the barrel, you should probably use the point setter sold by the company that makes the tips. I usually just use the long end of a small hex wrench. Either one helps to make sure that the two epee contacts are set down flush so that the contact spring can make reliable bridges between them.

[yeoldearmourer]

Go point on the Dremel and the grooves I do this automatic just as a part of rewire to run it the groove to get any tits of metal clear to prevent striping. I do something without thinking about it because it so much part of my routine I just assume other people do the same.

[Tomas N]

OK, I've had the same problem. My hypothesis at the time was that the threading on the barrel starts so deep inside of the barrel that once you start to crank the thing tight, the cup is hitting the end of the blade, or the end of the blade is crimping the wires as they enter the cup. I haven't actually thought seriously about whether the measurements make that possible, (this happened a couple of months ago and I haven't done much work on it since then) but it seemed the most obvious explanation after I noticed how on a regular German point the threading starts right at the edge of the barrel, but on an LP points that I had, it starts a good deal (I would estimate about 2 mm) in.

This is too bad, since the LP tip is otherwise the best/smoothest one I've ever used.

Tomas

[Epee Scherma]

I am experiencing the same problem with my LP wires/tips. I feel the stringy insulation on the wires themselves is not very durable, and ground out each other easily. I believe the barrel/blade's threading very easily knicks and takes off the string insulation on the wire. Not sure if I get two or no lights on the test box.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Tomas N

OK, I've had the same problem. My hypothesis at the time was that the threading on the barrel starts so deep inside of the barrel that once you start to crank the thing tight, the cup is hitting the end of the blade, or the end of the blade is crimping the wires as they enter the cup. I haven't actually thought seriously about whether the measurements make that possible, (this happened a couple of months ago and I haven't done much work on it since then) but it seemed the most obvious explanation after I noticed how on a regular German point the threading starts right at the edge of the barrel, but on an LP points that I had, it starts a good deal (I would estimate about 2 mm) in.

This is too bad, since the LP tip is otherwise the best/smoothest one I've ever used.

Tomas

The cup never does hit the end of the blade. In every barrel I have ever seen there is like a collar that the cup seats against. It is true that the end of the blade will often bottom out at the inner edge of the threaded part of the barrel on the other side of this same collar.

I confess that I am not too familiar with Leon Paul tips and their wires, just not in common use in our part of the fencing world. Although in my experience with French type wires with double thread insulation, I have had more trouble with Epee wires shorting to the blade near the tip than with German type wires with their thread over shellac insulation.

A couple of possibilities:

The wire is bunching up inside the barrel and blade groove while you are pushing the cup in. As I said before, you have to keep a light steady pull on the wire as you are pushing the cup home inside the barrel in order to prevent the wire from bunching up. When I have had wire frayed, both Epee and Foil, I have successfully used nail polish to re-insulate the wire. But you have to wait to let it dry.

There are sharp "tits of metal" (as Tim has described them) inside the blade groove that will pierce double thread insulation and short the wire to the blade. A Dremel, needle file, or even scraping with a jeweler's screwdriver should solve that.

The groove is too shallow, as I described in an earlier response in this thread, or too narrow and there is pressure on the wire from the threads of the barrel. Since double thread insulation makes for a larger diameter wire bundle, compared to single thread plus shellac insulation, there is more likely to be shorting of wire to the blade. Also the larger individual wire bundle makes it more likely that the two wires will not lay beside each other in the groove but one will be pushed up against the sharp edges of the barrel threads. Again, using a Dremel with thin grinding/cutting wheel will improve this. On the other hand, making the groove too wide and/or deep will weaken the holding power of the barrel on the blade and lead to avoidable loosening of the tip.

People like Tim who have seen so many blades through the years have developed a feel for what will cause problems and we make corrections sometimes without even thinking about it. I can understand the frustrations of those among us who only do their own weapons or are just starting to do them.

I guess I have wound up in another sermon. Maybe because it is Easter Sunday.

[Fishkillfencers]

I've had the same problem. I think it's the insulation. After three failed attempts in a row, I tried not smoothing the wire before gluing (I wanted to treat the insulation as gently as possible). It's ugly but it works.

I'm using German wires from now on.

[Purple Fencer]

You can also take a Dremel and chamfer out the tip of the blade...a little trick one of my armorers college classmates mentioned.

I've gotton in the habit of doing that to every new blade I buy now...and since I started, I haven't caught a wire...but it takes a steady hand.

Upshot...the tip of the blade will go from this (fresh from the factory)

| |
| |

To this (after chamfering)

\ /
| |

[Barry Paul]

Have a look at the leonpaul main site amoury section.
http://www.leonpaul.com/armoury/foil/foil_repair.htm



Taken from this is;
Pull the wire down gently towards the tang, making sure it is parallel to both sides of the barrel base to prevent the insulation being damaged as it passes through the narrow hole. When the wire has fully passed through and the nylon cup is against the top of the barrel base, hold the blade in a vice and push the cup firmly down into the bottom of the barrel base using a point setting applicator or screwdriver. When pushing the cup into the barrel base pull the wire gently to prevent the wire becoming trapped in the point.

Applicator, épée point wire
Applicator, épée point wire(Reference TA4)
Formed plastic rod for pushing the brass contacts of an epee wire into the barrel of the point when rewiring.

Price: $2.25


Hope this helps. Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul

[yeoldearmourer]

Most of the problems deal with the blade and not the wire when catching the wire in the grove I find this with almost any type of blade and not the wire or the points themselves but just left over metel in the grove not being clean

[jdoiv]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

Applicator, épée point wire
Applicator, épée point wire(Reference TA4)
Formed plastic rod for pushing the brass contacts of an epee wire into the barrel of the point when rewiring.

Price: $2.25

Having to rewire a blade twice do to armour error.... @#$% priceless!



sorry, couldn't resist...

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

In general, LP wires suck.

I've been using the absolute double insulated wires with great success.

Just because its made in britain does not mean its good.